Questions

[SRT Driver]

After listening to myself answering a question at work recently, I asked a question, "How can I convey a concept that I understand to someone who has no idea what they are asking?" As we progress in an area, we realize how to ask questions..more pointed questions. But until them the questions tend to be very open ended and general because the person does not know any specifics or details.

I thread I saw today is a prime example - How do I convince myself to shoot faster.

While the usual answers appeared - "be more efficient, see more etc" were there, I wondered, "Does the person who asked the question understand what that means?" How do I answer that in a way that they can understand?

I really feel that - while I am not a GM - I understand the concept of "seeing more", "moving efficiently" etc I just have not polished them enough or put them into practice to get a G infront of the M. How do I put those concepts into sentence that a new person can relate to? They may be thinking "what is efficient?" Then the answer is "reduce wasted movement" They say - "But what is necessary and what is not?" And the loop continues.

I remember when I first read BE's book, some of it made sense and some I had no clue about. Later, it made more sense. Now, I see what BE was talking about after many years of watching myself shoot and thinking about it.

How do you convey these concept in a simple, pointed manner?

[lugnut]

There are many, many answers....

Watch a good draw- no dipping or pointing the muzzle up before going on target. When the gun is pushed out the sights are acquired on the way and goes bang at the end.

Transitions- watch people that are good... they don't hesistate a fraction of a sec after the shoot breaks- they are already acquiring the next target and the gun is moving- did you see BE's book where the bullet didn't even hit the steel and his eyes were already on the next target?

Movement- how many times do you see a shooter run to a position while their gun is low? Good shooters are running to spot with the gun ALREADY high and when they get there they are just about ready to shoot. Again... faster and more efficient.

It's actually easy to explain when you think about it... hard to actually DO but easy to explain IMO.

I'll never foget the day I was watching my first Master shooter run a COF ( I was a MM level shooter). I had already seen many, many shooters before. After it was over I thought his run was slow and almost was boring... disappointing actually. However his time was faster than anyone I saw and all shots were down zero. I observed and learned something very significant that day.

[SRT Driver]

How do we explain this to a person that has no idea? Who can't see a person do it. I can move well but some times I don't remember exactly what I did to explain why.

If you watch someone and critique them (or yourself) soon after, the person can put a visual to the explaination. They ask a pointed question and you answer "He could have moved here instead of there" for example. Or "keep your gun up while moving into position" is a good one. To say, "Be effecient..cut out wasted movement", means nothing without putting it into context.

Maybe the answer is to use examples and to break it down into steps instead of using abstract terms that have no context.

[lugnut]

Maybe the answer is to use examples and to break it down into steps instead of using abstract terms that have no context.

I think so. After understanding/seeing a few examples it should be an easy thing for someone to understand. It's not that hard of a concept to grasp.... after all... it's easy to see the difference in times between a M and a B level shooter and it's not all in just clean shots.

[Flexmoney]

How do you change a mindset...or way of ingrained thinking???

Can you do it in a post? Is the student ready to learn? Willing?

Can you teach a newbie to "go faster" on a filed course...with all that is going on with a field course?

I find it better to be consistent in the ideas presented (generally). On specifics, I'd rather see someone working on one aspect on the game at a time (whatever is "most fundamental" that needs work).

When this forum started, we (I) used to say to folks to not mention this forum on other forums...because the true seekers of knowledge would search us out and find there own way here.

That can work within the forum as well. The key words and ideas are there...the seekers can search those out in read some of the specifics in fantastic threads of the past.

It's all free.

[j1b]

After listening to myself answering a question at work recently, I asked a question, "How can I convey a concept that I understand to someone who has no idea what they are asking?" As we progress in an area, we realize how to ask questions..more pointed questions. But until them the questions tend to be very open ended and general because the person does not know any specifics or details.

I thread I saw today is a prime example - How do I convince myself to shoot faster.

While the usual answers appeared - "be more efficient, see more etc" were there, I wondered, "Does the person who asked the question understand what that means?" How do I answer that in a way that they can understand?

I really feel that - while I am not a GM - I understand the concept of "seeing more", "moving efficiently" etc I just have not polished them enough or put them into practice to get a G infront of the M. How do I put those concepts into sentence that a new person can relate to? They may be thinking "what is efficient?" Then the answer is "reduce wasted movement" They say - "But what is necessary and what is not?" And the loop continues.

I remember when I first read BE's book, some of it made sense and some I had no clue about. Later, it made more sense. Now, I see what BE was talking about after many years of watching myself shoot and thinking about it.

How do you convey these concept in a simple, pointed manner?

Great question.

In some regards I guess that's why most of us haven't written a book. Because we don't articulate in hand what we have in our brains that well. In many regards though that is the beauty of a forum like this is you hear similar answers spun many different ways. I've often times went back and read an old thread and recognized that I was saying what Flex was saying who was saying what Sam was saying that was confirming what Duane had said. All said differently, and yet all kind of saying the same things. Obviously there are other times when opinions differ . . .

Anywho, I think the bigger challenge is getting folks to adopt what's being said.

Back when I was playing a fair bit of golf I went through a phase of reading up on that perfect swing. I read every book I could get my hands on and "practiced" diligently what I thought I was reading. Inevitably my wife got me a gift certificate to a class. Now most who golf understand a good shoulder turn is paramount to a good swing. And I've known that for years. It's been a core component of my game. Off to class I go, I make my first swing and the instructor goes "oh, well one issue is you're not turning your shoulders"

You see, I knew I needed to execute the shoulder turn. And I thought I was turning my shoulder. But I was not turning my shoulder.

That's the difference. Even in these forums from folks who understand one needs to see more for instance. Yes, we all know it, but are any of us actually doing it? Ben Stoeger probably is - he was third at nationals. Matt Mink probably is, he is also highly ranked nationally. Travis Tomasie likely is. TGO, Brian, and Jerry are all doing it. But likely many of us simply know we need to see more but aren't in fact working to see more.

Even looking at advice given, in some circumstances, it's maddening because the advice isn't taken. This idea around video taping yourself shooting a match and then going in and really analyzing it to understand the good, bad, and ugly about your game. Few folks have done it. Few will. And yet it is a FANTASTIC way to open your eyes to the opportunities in your game. There is normally a delta between what someone thinks they are doing and what they are in fact actually doing (shoulder turn anyone???).

I do agree that some of these concepts are rather simple in nature and very difficult to explain. Seeing is one of those concepts. Brian's book probably accomplishes this better than anything I've ever read. Like many things in life, part of this process is the "ah hah" moments that take place behind the trigger. I remember mine, with seeing, many many years ago. I was taking a class with Rob Leatham, I was shooting a single stack .45 and he had just gotten his P-9. I'd never shot a comp gun before, nor a 9x23, 38 super, 9x21 etc. etc. He puts his gun in my hand and says "shoot a few shots" - That first shot was amazing! The front post lifted up a little, then as the slide fell it looped back. Just like it had been described to me 100 times. I'd never seen it until that day, and I realized then that my vision wasn't what it needed to be.

Fun game isn't it? As they say, it is the journey much more than it is the destination!

Jack

[lugnut]

When this forum started, we (I) used to say to folks to not mention this forum on other forums...because the true seekers of knowledge would search us out and find there own way here.

That can work within the forum as well. The key words and ideas are there...the seekers can search those out in read some of the specifics in fantastic threads of the past.

You know this is an interesting point. I am a decent shooter at my club, not the best but in the top of the pack. I'm always willing to help other new shooters as I think it's the right thing to do and I was fortunate that a couple folks had taken me under their wings.

I used to try too hard to offer help. If I saw someone with their mags backwards in the mag pouches I'd tell them the "right" way to stow and reload. If I saw a bad grip- I'd suggest options. If I saw them running with the gun low I'd help. However I don't do this anymore for the reason you posted! Some people don't really WANT new information.... I don't think it's because they don't believe my information is wrong. They want to do what they do.

These days I watch and offer help when I "see" someone looking for it. It's more rewarding to me that way anyways. And FWIW- I'm always looking for help/tips for better shooters!! I've been fortunate that there are some great people that will go out of their way to help someone like me. That's what really makes this sport so truly awesome.

Edited November 29, 2008 by lugnut

[JThompson]

The forum can be obtuse, esp to someone trying to learn the basics... many of the ideas could be expressed in lay terms that would lessen the learning curve. I don't mean this to sound unappreciative of all the knowledge imparted here, but it could be easier to assimilate.

It would be helpful to have a, "Glossary of Terms" for the lay person. I know it took me months to figure out what people were talking about... many are afraid to ask for feeling like an idiot.

May be we could start one and make it like Wikipedia and those who wanted could add to the thread.

Edited November 29, 2008 by JThompson

[JimmyZip]

The forum can be obtuse, esp to someone trying to learn the basics... many of the ideas could be expressed in lay terms that would lesson the learning curve. I don't mean this to sound unappreciative of all the knowledge imparted here, but it could be easier to assimilate.

It would be helpful to have a, "Glossary of Terms" for the lay person. I know it took me months to figure out what people were talking about... many are afraid to ask for feeling like an idiot.

May be we could start one and make it like Wikipedia and those who wanted could add to the thread.

Boy, I've been here a year and I would certainly like that. I think I would spend most of my time there and in the Handgun Techniques forum.

[SRT Driver]

Great stuff everyone!

I agree that the intention of the forum is to provide an outlet for "true belivers" and discovery is the meat of it all. Most of us know that instant gratification is not the route to true understanding. However, it appears that many have spent years traveling down a path that does not reveal anything meaningful.

We could spend a lifetime and not have true understanding. My intention is to, although maybe a bit selfish, to find a more succinct way of articulating some of the basics in a more pointed manner. It is frustrating in my case to explain something that I learned- which I feel is basic - to someone that gives my the "deer in the headlights" look. Someone who truly wants to learn but just does not get it. I do not feel that any of the mystique is founded and there must be a way to turn on the bulb in those folks who neither have the time or understanding. Not only would it help us it would raise the level at which we are forced compete. This in itself could lead to further discovery and benefit all of us .

Edited November 29, 2008 by SRT Driver

[waktasz]

That was my thread

I think the biggest thing I took out of it was to push myself in practice and dry fire, and to (especially on close targets) break the shot as soon as the sights tell me I will score a hit. No need for perfect sight picture on a 5 yard target.

Don't worry, I was listening

[dajarrel]

......How do you convey these concept in a simple, pointed manner?

Albert Einstein said, "You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother.""

I think that is a fair way to put it. I find myself out of my comfort zone sometimes when explaining something to a newbie. I would rather not say anything at all than to mislead or teach them something incorrectly. I"ve never had a problem saying, "I don't know, but we'll find out."

What really bothers me is to see someone try to import sunshine up someones backside because they don't know the answer to a question.

fwiw

dj

[benos]

You must figure out the fastest way to consistently and repeatedly accomplish each act you do.

Others can point out specific principles and techniques, then you have to work with them long enough until you are doubt free about the best way to do everything you do.

And there's the "experience factor." If I explained in minute everything I saw during a run that happened to go real well, if you hadn't previously seen the majority of what I described, it wouldn't help or matter to you one bit - then. But if you turned the description into a series of questions to yourself, and asked yourself, just before and after you shot, why didn't I see this or that, you'd begin to uncover what's preventing you from seeing everything.

Also, some people are "doers" and some people are "explainers." Explainers may not always be the best doers. My dad was a great bowling coach, but only a slightly above average bowler.

A really good explainer will tailor an explanation to the listener. Which I'm not doing right now. I was just typing how this good thread drifted me.

be

[AlamoShooter]

It is funny how the mind will travel for years and back in just one or two post.

My Dad was /is the best Shooter I ever saw shoot, I have not seen him fire a round in 40 years. He was an accomplished teacher of the working of the mind and & solved design problems in jet air plains.

BUT he had no Idea on how to teach me to hit a bird with a shotgun.

When I said " I can't understand how you can never miss". He said "I cant understand how you Can Miss".

Deep words after 30 years of thought. when I was ready to understand.... the big circle comes to

The thought of missing never got near his brain when he shot

The hardest thing about teaching and coaching it figuring out a language that works both directions . And figuring out what they are ready to understand.