Calling out times on Multi-String COF

[Morphire]

Alright a simple need for some clarification from an RO and Scorekeeper standpoint if you please. I was certain I'd read on here how to rule this but I have done searches and haven't come up with it again so my memory or my search fu must be weak.

Okay so it's a multiple string stage (standards) and the RO is showing the timer to the scorer after each string. Does the RO or the scorer call out the times? I've been taught, no you don't call out in the time in case an event occurs later in the COF that could possibly bring rule 8.6.4 into play. If you had been calling out the times then the rule is moot since the shooter has an indication of times for the earlier strings.

8.6.4 In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire. The competitor must accept or decline the offer prior to seeing either the time or the score from the initial attempt. However, in the event that the competitor commits a safety infraction during any such interference, the provisions of Section 10.3 may still apply.

When Scorekeeping a milti-stage this past weekend I reiterated to the RO that he should just show me the timer and I'll write down the time indicating when I had it and he could move on. He was adamant that each string was in and of itself with its own COF and so the shooter should be told his time. When I tried to explain that it took rule 8.6.4 out of play and was a detriment to the shooter, he said that each string was it's own separate COF and if he interfered with a shooter on another string then only that string would be reshot. When I disagreed I was told that I shouldn't be ROing from the grandstands and to let him do his job. I tried to explain the situation further but he wasn't interested in letting me finish a sentence so I eventually just did as he asked and IMO potentially could have screwed over a competitor. This was all a level I local monthly match.

My thoughts are that since the scoring of the COF doesn't happen until AFTER all strings are shot that anything that could bring 8.6.4 into play would result in a reshoot for the entire COF and not a particular string. The other competitors don't get the advantage of seeing what their scores are for the previous strings to allow them to better manage the rest of the strings, so it's only fair that the whole COF be reshot IMO.

What do you guys think? Should times be called out so that the shooter can hear them on multi-sting COFs? Does rule 8.6.4 force an entire multi-string COF to be reshot or just the string where it occurred?

FWIW I can see the competitor asking for their times to be called out knowing that they are giving up the ability to later call rule 8.6.4 into play if they are interfered. But I don't agree with taking the right away from them.

Edited November 25, 2008 by Morphire

[Flatland Shooter]

Per Rule 1.2.2.1 " Standard Exercises" - courses of fire consisting of two or more separately time component strings. This initially seems to be in agreement with your point of view.

However later in the same rule it states "The course of fire for each component string may require a specific shooting position ..........." which leads me to believe that each string is considered a "course of fire".

Though I do not like to hear the times when I am shooting and I do not call out the times when I am the RO. If it is a Level 1 match, I would comply with a shooter's request to let him know what his time was on a string. (Rule 8.6.2.1)

Bill

Edited November 25, 2008 by Flatland Shooter

[ima45dv8]

8.3.1 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”. {snip}

8.3.8 “Range Is Clear” – This declaration signifies the end of the Course of fire." {snip}

So no, the multiple strings in a Standards stage are not separate COF's in and of themselves. If in the RO's opinion (that's why it says the Range Officer "may" offer the competitor a reshoot, and not "will"...) significant interference occurred, and the interference occurred in other than the first string, the competitor would have to reshoot the COF, and that includes all component strings of a Standards stage.

[SteveU]

Personally, I don't like to hear the times during a multi-stage COF, and try not to listen. It gets in my head and I'm at the stage of my game that it distracts me. I'm pretty sure there is nothing in the rulebook that specifies calling them out. If the shooter wants to know after the COF, he can see the sheet or ask if he wants to know earlier.

[DrawandDuck]

I have always called the times out and granted I have only been shooting 3 years I have ran ALOT of shooters and it has never been an issue, nope not once.....I learned a lesson on score sheets at the Area 6 3-gun match where the RO showed me the time, I droped the bolt on the shotgun, he shows the score keeper who writes down the time....I hastly scribble my signature on the score sheet as I know and trust both of them....that night when the scores posted it was 10 seconds slower then what I had shot....the timer picked up the bolt droping..................

There are both sides to the argument....If the shooter does NOT like his times called then maybe he should politely request that of the RO prior to shooting.....problem solved and everyone is happy.

Randal

[MisterB]

Unless you score the targets and repair them between strings, how could you have a reshoot on just one string? Most COF with separate strings are scored and targets repaired at the end, so if you reshoot one string how do you know what holes were shot on which string. I think you have to reshoot the entire stage, not just one string.

[Flexmoney]

Chances of somebody being interfered with while shooting a standards is relatively slim... compared to the clipboard RO and the timer RO having a miscommunication while calling out hits and time while on a shooting range wearing hearing muffs.

I call out the times from the timer and expect the clipboard RO to call them back to me. It just one check and balance that helps to get the right score/time for the shooter.

I wouldn't negate a reshoot on those grounds.

[Morphire]

Chances of somebody being interfered with while shooting a standards is relatively slim... compared to the clipboard RO and the timer RO having a miscommunication while calling out hits and time while on a shooting range wearing hearing muffs.

I call out the times from the timer and expect the clipboard RO to call them back to me. It just one check and balance that helps to get the right score/time for the shooter.

I wouldn't negate a reshoot on those grounds.

I always try to position myself so the RO can just show me the timer and I can write it down and then either tap the RO or just say "got it" to let them know I have the time recorded properly.

I tend to agree with your desire of allowing a reshoot but according to rule 8.6.4 doesn't it state that a reshoot may only be offered if the shooters has not heard their time or scores?

8.6.4 ... "The competitor must accept or decline the offer prior to seeing either the time or the score from the initial attempt."

[Morphire]

8.3.1 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”. {snip}

8.3.8 “Range Is Clear” – This declaration signifies the end of the Course of fire." {snip}

So no, the multiple strings in a Standards stage are not separate COF's in and of themselves. If in the RO's opinion (that's why it says the Range Officer "may" offer the competitor a reshoot, and not "will"...) significant interference occurred, and the interference occurred in other than the first string, the competitor would have to reshoot the COF, and that includes all component strings of a Standards stage.

Mark,

So would you therefore be negating the ability to allow a reshoot per 8.6.4 if you called out the intermediate string times so the competitor could hear them before offering them a reshoot?

A scenario may make it clearer what I'm trying to figure out specifically.

Shooter is on a three string stage and is hearing the times for each string called out and repeated by the RO and Scorekeeper. Somehow the shooter gets bumped by the RO during the draw on the second string. Let's assume the RO feels the interference is significant enough to allow a reshoot offer to be made.

First does the RO still have the ability to offer a reshoot based on 8.6.4 since the shooter has been told the times of at least part of his COF? My thinking is no, the RO can't offer a reshoot since the conditions of rule 8.6.4 haven't been fully met. Hence my thought that the RO shouldn't be calling out times for multi-string stages unless the shooter is specifically asking for them and knows that they are screwing themselves out of the possibility of rule 8.6.4 being used in their favor later.

I'm assuming since the COF isn't finished until the "Range is Clear" command is given, that even if the shooters isn't being made privy to their times the offer for a reshoot wouldn't even be offered until then as opposed to at the end of string two where the interference occurred. Do you agree?

[Nik Habicht]

I always try to position myself so the RO can just show me the timer and I can write it down and then either tap the RO or just say "got it" to let them know I have the time recorded properly.

That method however does not confirm that the correct times get recorded. Like Flex, I'll say the time out loud and make you read it back. I've had to offer maybe two or three re-shoots under 8.6.4 in my time as an R.O., none on a standards/classifier type stage. Has this actually been a problem, or are you just musing aloud?

Definitive guidance could probably be elicited from NROI....

[ima45dv8]

Mark,

So would you therefore be negating the ability to allow a reshoot per 8.6.4 if you called out the intermediate string times so the competitor could hear them before offering them a reshoot?

No, I wouldn't consider the possibility of a reshoot negated. He may have heard times for the component strings of the COF but the total time for that stage (COF) hasn't been announced.

A scenario may make it clearer what I'm trying to figure out specifically.

Shooter is on a three string stage and is hearing the times for each string called out and repeated by the RO and Scorekeeper. Somehow the shooter gets bumped by the RO during the draw on the second string. Let's assume the RO feels the interference is significant enough to allow a reshoot offer to be made.

First does the RO still have the ability to offer a reshoot based on 8.6.4 since the shooter has been told the times of at least part of his COF?

Sure.

My thinking is no, the RO can't offer a reshoot since the conditions of rule 8.6.4 haven't been fully met. Hence my thought that the RO shouldn't be calling out times for multi-string stages unless the shooter is specifically asking for them and knows that they are screwing themselves out of the possibility of rule 8.6.4 being used in their favor later.

Excellent reasoning. You sir, are a DRL-in-Training (said with all due love and affection for fellow DRL's). Remember, examining the rules to that level of detail is the first step in admitting you have a problem. Sadly, no 12-Step programs exist but you likely will have better scores down the road as your understanding of what is and what isn't allowed will give you an advantage over many of your competitors. To put a fine point on it, 'should' and 'shouldn't' play only a marginal role in this game. 'Will' and 'Shall' and 'May' are used frequently in the rulebook and carry much more weight.

"Should" the RO call times for individual strings in a Standards course? You're damned if you do and damned if you don't. Some shooters will complain of the distraction if you do, while other will question the veracity of the recorded times since the RO with the clipboard didn't verbally acknowledge the times called out by the RO with the timer if you don't.

The straight answer is, even though he shooter may have heard "intermediate" times called, if he's on string two of a three-string COF, he hasn't heard the total time for the stage. 8.2.4 is satisfied.

I'm assuming since the COF isn't finished until the "Range is Clear" command is given, that even if the shooters isn't being made privy to their times the offer for a reshoot wouldn't even be offered until then as opposed to at the end of string two where the interference occurred. Do you agree?

Not really. Consider the example of a piece of steel that either wasn't reset or fell before a shooter could engage it. If the RO sees the situation he would be correct in stopping the shooter right then and requiring a reshoot rather than waiting for the shooter to waste ammo through the remainder of the COF, only to announce a mandatory reshoot due to Range Equipment Failure.

Bullets are precious. Waste not, want not.

[Flexmoney]

I can't count how many times I've experienced mistakes made getting the proper times and scores down on paper.

If you aren't calling them back, then I am SURE that mistaken times and scores WILL get recorded.

I've never seen an interference reshoot on a Standards, that I can recall. I've only seen just a few (offered) on field courses and such. Ever.

Being the clipboard RO and reading directly off the timer is suspect as well. You are further away, the timer is likely bobbing around, and you don't know if the timer RO is holding the timer up-side-down or not. I've had to give a reshoot...to a National Champion shooter...due to a time getting copied down wrong in a similar manner. I am pretty sure a 6 second run showed up as a 9 second run while the RO of the clipboard read the (up-side-down?) timer as I cleared the shooter/stage.

[Morphire]

I always try to position myself so the RO can just show me the timer and I can write it down and then either tap the RO or just say "got it" to let them know I have the time recorded properly.

That method however does not confirm that the correct times get recorded.

Well really neither does the Scorekeeper callign back the times to the RO but that seems ot be even finer splitting of hairs.

Like Flex, I'll say the time out loud and make you read it back. I've had to offer maybe two or three re-shoots under 8.6.4 in my time as an R.O., none on a standards/classifier type stage. Has this actually been a problem, or are you just musing aloud?

Definitive guidance could probably be elicited from NROI....

No it hasn't been an issue. It's definitely me just musing. The only time it's been a problem was the discussion betwen myself and the RO at this particular stage. I've never had the scenario come up but then again I've never had a number of scenarios come up that are in the rule book yet. Hopefully I avoid a good number of them that might result in a tough call having to be made in the future. Thanks for the guidance!

[Morphire]

Excellent reasoning. You sir, are a DRL-in-Training (said with all due love and affection for fellow DRL's). Remember, examining the rules to that level of detail is the first step in admitting you have a problem. Sadly, no 12-Step programs exist but you likely will have better scores down the road as your understanding of what is and what isn't allowed will give you an advantage over many of your competitors. To put a fine point on it, 'should' and 'shouldn't' play only a marginal role in this game. 'Will' and 'Shall' and 'May' are used frequently in the rulebook and carry much more weight.

Okay I'm actually laughing out loud and my wife is wondering what's going on up here. =] I come from a sport (airgun field target) with a very loose and undefined set of rules and I thoroughly like the fact that USPSA has a godo set of rules to work from so understanding them well is a bit of a priority for me. I'ts nice to know I'm in the apprentice program for DRL. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/style_emot...lt/rolleyes.gif

The straight answer is, even though he shooter may have heard "intermediate" times called, if he's on string two of a three-string COF, he hasn't heard the total time for the stage. 8.2.4 is satisfied.

Interesting. I'm assuming you meant 8.6.4 and not 8.2.4. Since 8.6.4 doesn't make a distinction between a time given at the end or the middle of a COF it still has wiggle room. That seems to leave the RO some judgment in whether or not to grant a reshoot if they feel interference was given.

I'm assuming since the COF isn't finished until the "Range is Clear" command is given, that even if the shooters isn't being made privy to their times the offer for a reshoot wouldn't even be offered until then as opposed to at the end of string two where the interference occurred. Do you agree?

Not really. Consider the example of a piece of steel that either wasn't reset or fell before a shooter could engage it. If the RO sees the situation he would be correct in stopping the shooter right then and requiring a reshoot rather than waiting for the shooter to waste ammo through the remainder of the COF, only to announce a mandatory reshoot due to Range Equipment Failure.

Bullets are precious. Waste not, want not.

Hmm not really the same situation since one scenario requires a mandatory reshoot due to 4.6.2 (Range Equipment Malfunction) and the other is subject to the all mighty "may" as in the RO may offer the competitor a reshoot (8.6.4). In 8.6.4 the RO "may" offer a reshoot and additionally the competitor "must" accept or decline it so the RO should allow the competitor to finish the COF (all strings required) in my opinion, and then offer the reshoot at "Range is Clear". The competitor can then determine if they wish the reshoot. I'm still leaning to thinking the times being called out negate the ability to use 8.6.4. I understand the benefit of calling out the times and having them called back out to you and so therein lies the rub. The rule seems to counter good RO/Scorekeeper practice.

[Morphire]

I can't count how many times I've experienced mistakes made getting the proper times and scores down on paper.

If you aren't calling them back, then I am SURE that mistaken times and scores WILL get recorded.

I've never seen an interference reshoot on a Standards, that I can recall. I've only seen just a few (offered) on field courses and such. Ever.

Being the clipboard RO and reading directly off the timer is suspect as well. You are further away, the timer is likely bobbing around, and you don't know if the timer RO is holding the timer up-side-down or not. I've had to give a reshoot...to a National Champion shooter...due to a time getting copied down wrong in a similar manner. I am pretty sure a 6 second run showed up as a 9 second run while the RO of the clipboard read the (up-side-down?) timer as I cleared the shooter/stage.

I do understand your concerns and definitely agree with them all. The frequency isn't even what I'm concerned as much about as there are quite a few rules that come into play infrequently is ever, but could be very important to a competitor if they are relevant in a particular situation. I believe the calling out and reply of the times is a best practice for RO and Scorekeeper. My question was much more one of rule 8.6.4 and whether or not our good time calling practice may indeed be screwing over a competitor for the possibility of a reshoot. Remember that 8.6.4 also says that the RO may allow a reshoot if the interference comes from "another external influence" interfering with the competitor. Since 8.6.4 allows the competitor to choose whether or not to accept the reshoot (not mandatory) the COF should be completed before making the offer to the competitor should it not? According to 8.3.8 that comes at "Range is Clear" and not in the middle of the strings. So if you're calling out the times for the intermediate strings are you not in fact eliminating the ability for the competitor to be able to "accept or decline the [reshoot] offer prior to seeing either the time or the score from the initial attempt"?

[wide45]

Lets take it a step further.

8.6.4 ... "The competitor must accept or decline the offer prior to seeing either the time or the score from the initial attempt."

Makes no difference what you have said about the time. If you don't show him the timer, or let him look at the scoresheet, he has not seen it.

[ima45dv8]

You as the RO are going to be called upon to use your judgement and make many decisions in a very short timeframe. It's good to think through some of these before they happen. For me it also helps to not overcomplicate what's being read.

My question was much more one of rule 8.6.4 and whether or not our good time calling practice may indeed be screwing over a competitor for the possibility of a reshoot.

Again, no it does not. If I'm holding the timer, and I find there is cause to offer the shooter a reshoot based on interference (from me or whatever), I will stop the shooter at that point and make the offer. If they take it, they will have to reshoot the entire COF. I see no value in wasting the shooter's time and ammo, and the rest of the squad's time by waiting until the entire COF has been shot.

*And this actually happened at Cool Springs on Sunday, in a Standards stage, and not on the last component string. Shooter accepted my offer of a reshoot, and we started over right then from the beginning.

I'm still leaning to thinking the times being called out negate the ability to use 8.6.4.

Then I guess there's not much else I can say.

Good luck.

[Morphire]

Lets take it a step further.

8.6.4 ... "The competitor must accept or decline the offer prior to seeing either the time or the score from the initial attempt."

Makes no difference what you have said about the time. If you don't show him the timer, or let him look at the scoresheet, he has not seen it.

Damn you're good!! Perfect solution to my conundrum. Thank you!

[JThompson]

I call them out... you need to have that for a sanity check... it also gives the shooter a chance to protest if the number seems way out of wack

[Morphire]

You as the RO are going to be called upon to use your judgement and make many decisions in a very short timeframe. It's good to think through some of these before they happen. For me it also helps to not overcomplicate what's being read.

Again, no it does not. If I'm holding the timer, and I find there is cause to offer the shooter a reshoot based on interference (from me or whatever), I will stop the shooter at that point and make the offer. If they take it, they will have to reshoot the entire COF. I see no value in wasting the shooter's time and ammo, and the rest of the squad's time by waiting until the entire COF has been shot.

*And this actually happened at Cool Springs on Sunday, in a Standards stage, and not on the last component string. Shooter accepted my offer of a reshoot, and we started over right then from the beginning.

And leaning is just another way of saying I haven't been convinced yet. LOL

Once you stop the shooter then you really aren't making them an "offer" for a reshoot since they can't really turn it down. The COF wasn't finished. But I do get what you're saying. Judgment is as much a part of the art of being an RO as the letter of the rules. And thinking through this situation now is why I'm asking these questions so I don't get flustered if I get in the position later. It may not be a standards stage but eventually rule 8.6.4 may come into play for me as an RO. It already happened as a competitor at this year's LPR nationals for me and I got a reshoot from it. The RO handled it perfectly and professionally I was able to take my reshoot and beat the reshoot gods. His very professional handling of the situation is what I want to emulate.

Thanks to all who commented on this. You all helped tremendously. =]

[ima45dv8]

As Beth Wingfield often says, "The reshoot Gods are rarely kind!"

Good for you on thinking ahead. If in doubt, slow down and get your book before making a call. We're only human.