WHen should you insist on a recall

[JKSNIPER]

Guys and Gals....a weapons question,

First off: I am NOT bashing any particular weapons manufacturer (shall remain nameless) and I checked and they are not listed as a forum dealer.

We did a group order of a particular brand of firearm.

I am the point of contact for the order.

The order was for aprox 35 weapons.

Out of those 35 weapons we have had 7(so far) that have safety/functioning issues.

Supposedly these weapons were "extensively test fired" at the factory and yet there are 2 that exhibited NO problems with dry firing /function checks and yet after 1 guy put 50 rounds and the other guy put 4 rounds downrange one weapon will fire with the safety engaged and the other jammed out of battery about 3/4" and the slide can't be moved by hand.

Due to the 7 weapons out of 35 being "bad" I want them to recall the entire order of 35 weapons.

Am I being unreasonable in insisting the ENTIRE order be recalled for inspection/repair/replacement?

FYI the weapons were primarily purchased by L.E.O.s who will carry them off duty.

Your opinions are appreciated.

Please do not "fish" for the manufacturer's name by asking questions designed to elicit that information.

I don't wish to disclose the manufacturer because I do not believe that this is the normal quality of their product and I am not looking to start an "I hate so and sos weapons" thread.

If you simply MUST know and cannot continue to exist without this information then you can PM me.....I however am not obligated to tell you. lol

JK

[davidwiz]

A failure rate of 20% is pretty high, IMHO. If it was me, I would send them all back for further checks, especially since these are duty firearms.

[38superman]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but for a man that was sold 7 defective firearms, you seem overly concerned about protecting their reputation.

That said, there are two ways to look at this.

First school of thought:

You can send the firearms with known defects back for repair.

Any reputable manufacturer will have no issues with that.

If you truly "do not believe that this is the normal quality of their product" then why insist on sending them all back?

Second school of thought:

Absolutely, positively instist on having each and every one of them inspected for function and safety.

If that many guns were proven to have a problem then the whole shipment is suspect.

This is especially true if the guns (or parts that built them) came from the same manufacturing lot.

Even the most reputable gun maker can have a batch of parts that is out of spec.

If their quality control inspection takes a sampling rather than check every individual part, bad ones can slip by.

This is even more likely if the parts are sub-contracted to a vendor where they cannot oversee the manufacturing processes.

If they are to be carried by police officers on duty or off, they must be absolutely reliable.

Err of the side of caution. Send them all back and don't take no for an answer.

Tls

Edited November 23, 2008 by 38superman

[SharonAnne9x23]

send them all back

[Ledge]

Send em all back, and replace them with something with a lower failure rate. If you loaded a 30 round mag, and 7 of the rounds were squibs, you probably would be real excited about using that ammo anymore.

[Nik Habicht]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but for a man that was sold 7 defective firearms, you seem overly concerned about protecting their reputation.

Tony,

the other way to look at that is that JK wants to follow Brian's guidelines ---- by not venting gun industry hate here. We applaud him for that! Additionally it appears that he'd like to resolve the problem --- by having the vendor inspect the entire order. That doesn't seem like an unreasonable request, assuming the guns were fed factory ammo during testing.....

John,

did you try different types of factory ammo in the guns? I'm reminded of a Duane Thomas quote:

Years ago a pistolsmith told me two things that I've never forgotten, and have stood me in good stead ever since when analyzing gun malfunctions: (1) "Whenever a previously 100% reliable gun suddenly starts puking on you, the first thing you should ask yourself is, 'Okay, what did I change?' Whatever that thing is that you've just changed is probably the source of the problem. Change back to the way things were when the gun worked 100% of the time, it'll probably start working 100% of the time again." (2) "Whenever a gun chokes, people never blame the ammo, they always blame the gun. But the fact is that most gun malfunctions, in guns that previously worked well, are ammunition related."

We get a lot of questions on this forum that, when you get right down to it, boil down to, "My gun has worked flawlessly up til now. I switched to a new load. Now my gun doesn't work. What should I do?" Answer: switch back to the ammo with which the gun worked. Problem solved.

In your case you didn't change anything --- but not every gun is compatible with every load out there....

[Viggen]

Send them all back - request/require replacements or refunds.

[JKSNIPER]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but for a man that was sold 7 defective firearms, you seem overly concerned about protecting their reputation.

Tony,

the other way to look at that is that JK wants to follow Brian's guidelines ---- by not venting gun industry hate here. We applaud him for that! Additionally it appears that he'd like to resolve the problem --- by having the vendor inspect the entire order. That doesn't seem like an unreasonable request, assuming the guns were fed factory ammo during testing.....

Nik,

Exactly 100% right on not venting gun industry hatred here.

John,

did you try different types of factory ammo in the guns? I'm reminded of a Duane Thomas quote:

Years ago a pistolsmith told me two things that I've never forgotten, and have stood me in good stead ever since when analyzing gun malfunctions: (1) "Whenever a previously 100% reliable gun suddenly starts puking on you, the first thing you should ask yourself is, 'Okay, what did I change?' Whatever that thing is that you've just changed is probably the source of the problem. Change back to the way things were when the gun worked 100% of the time, it'll probably start working 100% of the time again." (2) "Whenever a gun chokes, people never blame the ammo, they always blame the gun. But the fact is that most gun malfunctions, in guns that previously worked well, are ammunition related."

We get a lot of questions on this forum that, when you get right down to it, boil down to, "My gun has worked flawlessly up til now. I switched to a new load. Now my gun doesn't work. What should I do?" Answer: switch back to the ammo with which the gun worked. Problem solved.

In your case you didn't change anything --- but not every gun is compatible with every load out there....

Differnet types of factory as well as reloaded ammo were tried.

The ONLY issue that seemed directly related to ammo was the OAL of the reloads.

They would feed in my sons weapon (Different weapon) but in my new purchase they would just touch the inside wall of the magazine which would cause all kinds of binding up and feeding problems.

Once I re-seated the rounds a hair more in the casings they fed without problem. (200gr LSWC over 4.0-4.2 Clays)

The failures are not ammo related and include mags dropping when the weapon is fired and "snap firing". Safety malfunctions...we now have 8 weapons.

I got called a little while ago by another purchaser who had his weapon out at the range and had it "lock up" on him.

I willl be calling the sales rep tomorrow and speaking to him about our problems (again) except this time I will insist on recall of the order for inspection and repair/replacement.

JK

[JKSNIPER]

Also factory ammo used was predominately 230 gr ball from federal and white box winchester with others scattered in.

A .45 that does not feed 230gr ball reliably is probably going to become a steel club.

I am hoping the vendor will agree with me because as every day goes by I get another bunch of phone calls from guys about these weapons and their problems and will not have a problem with issuing a recall of them.

Spending a majority of the day hooked to my cell phone is NOT my idea of a good time.

JK

[warpspeed]

I'd cancel my order and send them all back. I'd select another vendor.

[LPatterson]

It sounds as though so far you have been discussing this with a vendor/distributor and it may be time to go over his head directly to the manufacturer. If I were one of the people that bought a gun from that lot and it worked alright so far I would still be worried that it might break when I needed it the most. A LE gun that fails on the job is bad enough with a vest and hopefully covering fire but an off duty gun that an officer is concerned may not work could be enough to get someone killed.

Box em up and send them back to the manufacturer.

[JKSNIPER]

Follow up to my earlier posting.

We have a weapons return going on now but the first 2 that were returned have come back to their owner.

He called me a little while ago and told me that they both have been returned to him with problems.

One was specifically sent back for a problem with "snap firing" a condition this company's head of production claimed was "Impossible to occur because we redesigned this weapon 4 years ago and due to the redesign its impossible for this to occur".

Well my buddy Mike's gun STILL snap fires despite the service people being told specifically to check for that condition. A sheet was included claiming that the weapon was function checked and test fired.

I don't know who they have working there at XXXX-XXX but its obviously noone here from this forum.

I'm calling the company rep Monday and telling him to keep the weapon and just refund my money.

I can't trust it to use as an off duty carry weapon at this point.

Very disgusted and upset about this.

Not looking to bash a certain company here but I will disclose the company in a PM to anyone interested.

I think in this case an exception to the bashing rule should be made not to bash the company but to keep anyone here from the same experience. Also to keep any LEOs here from buying this company's weapons and possibly geting hurt or killed due to their piss poor quality control and repair service.

JK

Edited December 13, 2008 by JKSNIPER

[atbarr]

I think in this case an exception to the bashing rule should be made not to bash the company but to keep anyone here from the same experience. Also to keep any LEOs here from buying this company's weapons and possibly geting hurt or killed due to their piss poor quality control and repair service.

JK

I agree, this company has some MAJOR quality control problems. I'm not a LEO (far from it), but I would not want to depend on one of these at a match.

A.T.

[Nik Habicht]

I think in this case an exception to the bashing rule should be made not to bash the company but to keep anyone here from the same experience. Also to keep any LEOs here from buying this company's weapons and possibly geting hurt or killed due to their piss poor quality control and repair service.

JK

Nope --- sorry! That won't be tolerated here. If ya'll want to discuss that via pms or e-mail, knock yourselves out.....

[JKSNIPER]

Very well Nik.

I will abide by the rules.

Anyone wishing to know the name of this company with poor customer service and problem weapons should PM me and I'll be glad to tell you who they are.

JK

[STInky]

PM sent.

[jrb06]

Were these brand new or refurbs from the factory? I agree either way they need to work and or fix the mistakes but for LOE operations refurbs while they may be like new they are not new. And if they were refurbs was is truly done by the factory.

[JKSNIPER]

Were these brand new or refurbs from the factory? I agree either way they need to work and or fix the mistakes but for LOE operations refurbs while they may be like new they are not new. And if they were refurbs was is truly done by the factory.

These were brand spanking new weapons from the factory.

Problems were experienced under a variety of conditons. Dry fire function checks, firing factory ammo, cleaning and reassembly, etc....

I'm talking SERIOUS problems not "Oh my weapon has a scratch mark on the finish" I'm talking about weapons firing when placed on safe, weapons locking up out of battery 3/4 of an inch, weapons exhibiting a condition known as "Snap firing".

10+ weapons out of a 34 weapon order.

Serious problems that SHOULD have been caught by any competant person doing a basic function check on the pistols prior to them leaving the factory.

100% unacceptable.

I am tempted to break the rules and reveal the company's super secret squirrel identity but to quote a famous movie "Self control got the better of me."

LOL

I have responded to several PMs already and if anyone is curious I have no problem responding to more.

John

[Singlestack Dan]

I'm thinking I know this company and had the same issue. In fact, I'm willing to bet a case o' beer on it.

PM otw.

[Nik Habicht]

I'll help you all out and remove the temptation to break the rules. John -- if by some miracle you get a great resolution, or even if you just want to comment on having received a refund, let me or one of the other moderators know and we'll open 'er back up for ya.....

[JKSNIPER]

I sent this letter requesting a refund from the company.

Anyone here think its too harsh or should I change anything?

John

G and K,

(Names hidden to remove any chance of I.D.ing the company in question)

Due to the problems with our order and the apparent inability of XXXX-XXX to correct the problems I am requesting a refund on my weapon.

Please credit my card with the amount I paid for the weapon.

I no longer have confidence in this weapon and cannot trust it to function properly in a possible lifesaving situation.

We had a 34 weapon order and have approx 10+ weapons that have had SERIOUS problems with functioning.

Mike H's 2 weapons were returned to him with the snap fire condition still uncorrected despite him having conversations with you about this very issue and him including a note with his firearm requesting that the technician receiving his weapon fix this problem.

Mike received the weapon back with a sheet claiming the weapon was function checked and test fired.

The weapon still snap fires.

I and the other Police Officers that ordered this weapon cannot trust our lives to this weapon when it may or may not function properly.

Therefore I request you issue a refund to every one on the SCPD order that requests a refund from XXXX-XXX.

Consider this my formal request for a refund.

Let me know where you want the 10 round magazines sent to and I will mail them to you once I receive an envelope/box from XXXX-XXX to ship them in.

G and K......Both of you have been pleasant to deal with over the phone but XXXX-XXX obviously has some extremely serious quality control issues both at your factory and repair center.

Until these issues are resolved I will not be able to be a XXXX-XXX customer.

I wish you luck in fixing these problems.

Sincerely,

John Klein

SCPD ES

[Singlestack]

Sorry about the drift but what is a "snap fire"?

[JKSNIPER]

Update:

Called the company rep today.

I had sent them an e-mail over the weekend that (in our conversation today) the company rep , G.W., says he got on Sunday but he put me on his "To call" list.

He says he spoke to my buddy Mike H. about the issues with his weapon and theres only one weapon affected (Not true according to Mike)

and that the tech did not check for the snap fire condition because the note Mike included with his gun did not say "Snap fire" on it it only said "Trigger Issues"

Singlestack I'm not ignoring you......I cannot answer the question about what a snap fire is without revealing the name of the company.Sorry. Suffice to say it is a condition that can be revealed by doing a basic function check. You don't have to be a gunsmith wizard to check for it nor do you have to be especially knowledgable to perform the check. I could tell you over the phone how to check for it and it would take me all of 15-30 seconds to explain it and it takes MUCH less time to perform the check than it did to write this.

Mike tells me that he wrote on the note what this rep (G.W.) told him to write which was the words "Trigger Issues" and he DID also include the term "Snap Fire" on the note.

I told G.W. that I consider this response from the tech to be totally substandard and borderline insulting.

I compared it to the child that gets told to go out and rake the leaves. The kid rakes the leaves but then just drops the rake in the driveway when hes done. When asked why is the rake in the driveway his response is "You told me to rake the leaves you never said to put the rake away."

I told the rep I did not blame him for this but that since he was the rep I was speaking to then it's a B.S. answer.

I then asked him "What would this tech had done if there was NO note with the weapon? Would he have taken it out of the box and just stared at it until someone told him what to do? If that tech had said that to me and I was his supervisor that guy would (minimum) get the benefit of a JK temper tantrum and if he was insolent like his response sounds then he would probably be looking for work right now.

It is a condition revealed to even the uninitiated by performing a simple and basic function check. A shooter that has NO knowledge of 1911 other then the basic operation of it can do it there is NO excuse on why a tech working at the company's service/repair center that has a weapon sent to him for service/repair did not perform this check when he had this weapon sitting in front of him."

Then he said it sounds like you have you mind made up about a refund.

I said yes I do.

He then tried to say he could 100% gurantee that the weapon would work out on the street in a gunfight situation and I said

"G.W. you CAN'T give me that guarentee because out of a 34 gun order we have 10+ with serious issues and the very first 2 that are sent back for repair/service you guys drop the ball. I have NO confidence in this weapons system and refuse to carry it off duty. It is substandard performance even for a competition weapon."

I get the "OK " response. I then ask him about returning the magazines (5) for the weapon and if XXXX-XXX is going to pay for them to be returned and his response to me is "Thats a good question."

Theres a long silence on the phone then he says (and I was shocked by this)

"If XXXX-XX has to pay for them to be sent back then as far as I'm concerned you can throw them in the f***ing garbage."

I say "Ok if that s what you want."

He then cuts me off short by saying "I have to take this other call." and hangs up.

The whole tone of the conversation became tense and a little hostile when it became apparent that I was insisting on a refund.

Perhaps I am too used to dealing with unhappy "customers" in the LEO business that I expect company reps to not take it personally when their company s**ts the bed and the customer is unhappy and wants a refund.

I was/am shocked by the attitude I received from this guy whose company basically fudged up this order in numerous ways from failing to reassign the project to another person when the original person left the company to failing to include High Cap mags with the LEO's pistols to shipping weapons with problems to guys without really firing them or checking them at the factory.

I am VERY unhappy about this and will NEVER buy another weapon from this company again.

JK

I am now awaiting my refund.

Lets see how that goes...hoo-boy.

[XRe]

Geez, man Good luck on that... If anything, you've confirmed for me another company that won't see a lick of my cash in the future...

[atbarr]

I am now awaiting my refund.

Lets see how that goes...hoo-boy.

I think it's time you made the name of this company public!

A.T.