-JQ- Posted November 17, 2008 Share Posted November 17, 2008 First off - I'm a gamer - not LEO or Milspec - but I have lots of trigger time on the MP5. I know there are some LEO Depts that are going from MP5's to the AR platform. I'm transitioning to the AR for 3gun...at least for some of the matches...and I was wondering if anyone had first hand expericence with issues that came up in the transition. I know practice is the name of the game. I just hate to give up the MOA I've gotten so used to - hard headed to be sure...and was hoping for some "shaman on the mount" level input. I use the "stock on the sturnum" technique for the MP5 - is this realistic with the AR? Thanks in advance! Joel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 (edited) The manual of arms is different, of course. Reloading is a lot smoother with an AR, and ergonomics generally are a big improvement. You can get a collapsing stock on the AR to try the sternum trick, but you will probably find the traditional shoulder position with nose-to-charging-handle is more productive. Lastly, if your MP5 is anything like the others I have seen (including genuine HK full autos), you will doing a lot less malfunction clearance drills with the AR Edited November 19, 2008 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badchad Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 I use the "stock on the sturnum" technique for the MP5 - is this realistic with the AR? I just did a google search and got nothing. What is this "stock on the sternum" stuff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-JQ- Posted November 19, 2008 Author Share Posted November 19, 2008 I use the "stock on the sturnum" technique for the MP5 - is this realistic with the AR? I just did a google search and got nothing. What is this "stock on the sternum" stuff? As I was instructed, the MP5 was designed for this method...or the method for the rifle?? The gist is...the stock is moved toward the center of the chest (not really ON the sternum) and the stance is square with the target, and not the bladed/typical rifle stance. This gives you a great stance and controls recoil (if you can call it that on an MP5). I also find it easier to keep my elbows in (no chicken winging) when using this method...all this may be due to the fact the MP5 was designed to be a CQB weapon....very short rifle HKPro.com offers MP5 classes based on the actual HK manual of arms for the MP5. He was the North American HK Training something or another at some point...and a super nice guy to boot. His screen name is HKPro if you visit the site. If G-manbart would swing by with his MP5/10 I'd be glad to demo it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-JQ- Posted November 19, 2008 Author Share Posted November 19, 2008 Maybe this will help...it is officially called the Boxer stance. This is a snippet out of the manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 Erik Lund (Bear1142 on here) might be your goto guy for this. I think he has some videos up with classes on the AR...from his affiliation with USSA...likely located on downrange TV. http://www.downrange.tv/artman2/publish/dr...icles/107.shtml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-JQ- Posted November 20, 2008 Author Share Posted November 20, 2008 Erik Lund (Bear1142 on here) might be your goto guy for this. I think he has some videos up with classes on the AR...from his affiliation with USSA...likely located on downrange TV.http://www.downrange.tv/artman2/publish/dr...icles/107.shtml Excellent! Thanks Flex Flex do you shoot any of the shoots in Wilmington on the first weekends? I think I'll be up there next time with a crew from the SWOH area....it'll be my first trip to that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 I shoot USPSA Pistol on 1st Saturdays at Circleville (Pickaway). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badchad Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 The gist is...the stock is moved toward the center of the chest (not really ON the sternum) and the stance is square with the target, and not the bladed/typical rifle stance. Ok thanks. That's largely how I shoot both my subguns and rifles now. I took the "sternum" part literally and was thinking what the... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Dan Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 I did just the opposite, transitioned from an AR to an MP. The MP made me appreciate the design of the AR so much more... I much prefer the convenient locations of the selector lever and mag release on the AR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-JQ- Posted November 23, 2008 Author Share Posted November 23, 2008 I did just the opposite, transitioned from an AR to an MP. The MP made me appreciate the design of the AR so much more...I much prefer the convenient locations of the selector lever and mag release on the AR. That is interesting. I'd be interested to know if this changes as you get used to it. I figure I'll warm to the AR after a while... Can't argue with the selector esp on the SEF lowers. The ambi versions are much better but backward to me w/ SEF...since mine is a sear gun and runs like a top I can't see (afford) getting it converted to the new lower style. But I like being able to grab the mag and release it with basically one move...but like I said I don't have much time with an AR yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BPiatt Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 I was teaching a police class a few months ago with both mp5's (full auto) and 11.5" AR's , also full auto. On the same courses, I could shoot the AR faster every time. While the AR has more muzzle blast, it has faster cycle time and less recoil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STInky Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 I use the "stock on the sturnum" technique for the MP5 - is this realistic with the AR? The whole stock on the sturnum technique was developed to take advantage of body armour. When you are in a gun fight & wearing armour, you want to keep your shoulders square to the bad guy to present as much of the armour surface to possible in-coming rounds. Also, the armour helps to disperse the recoil over your entire torso and not just the center of your chest. By staying square to the target, you also expose less of the sides of your body, which are not protected as well by armour. I suppose you could use this technique with an AR, but I wouldn't want to do it without a heavy vest on. A good squared-up, forward aggressive stance is all you need with the AR. Just my opinion, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Impending thread drift!! You would think that by now ( the first time I heard this...keep your armour twards the target thing, because of the sides was in the mid 70s ) that the Armour companies would have designed better side protection for the vests instead of forcing the shooter to do something that isn't natural nor condusive to good shooting. But then again we were supposed to have flying cars by now also..Walter told me so in the 60,s. KurtM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diablodawg Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 *Continuing Thread Drift* More armor= more weight, especially at enhanced plates designed to stop AP projectiles. Even with the side SAPIs used now, they will never cover as much as a front, even if you had some to go on the shoulders; which would be asinine. There will always be a gap directly underneath the armpit with armor, which leads straight to the heart; the front armor covers all vitals in the abdomen area, with at least some armor. A square stance also can help with recoil control, if trained to that standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jobob Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 When I retired from law enforcement, they were teaching this butt on the sternum technique for ALL long guns. Some officers swore that shooting an 870 from the center of the chest was much more comfortable. Maybe so if you have arms 2 feet longer than mine! Of course we just CAN'T do an unauthorized modification to the gun, like taking a saw to the buttstock. So, women and smaller statured officers are still forced to shoot the "right" way, even if it's wrong! And with the wrong equipment. I think that stinky is right on the correct techique. Glad I retired. If I stayed I would have said something to get me fired and lose my pension! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-JQ- Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 At the time I posted this thread I didn't have much AR time and didn't even own one. That has changed and I now have and an AR and have some time with it... I put a Magpul adjusted short on my AR and it feels much better and shorter than the "rifle-ish" A2 length AR stock...a little more "comfortable" and more like an MP5...but I still need an SBR length upper to complete the package. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshog8541 Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 Our Department went from MP5 to the AR. None of are SRT members have had any proplems with the Transition. The EoTech is nice when making Entry and engaging targets within a 100yds & The reloads are way faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 If you get the opportunity, watch Matt Burkett's DVDs on shooting the AR-15 and shotgun. Matt does not blade, even though he does put the stock in his shoulder pocket, and considers having his body square to the target a great advantage in controlling recoil and getting the rifle/shotgun tracking consistently. When you're bladed, by contrast, recoil energy coming to the rear has a tendency to cause the body to twist clockwise, especially when hammering multiple shots fast. Watch Matt do a sub-2 second Bill Drill with a Benelli running full power slugs and that will show you that the non-bladed technique really does work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 My understanding, and impression, is that the sternum technique for firing a long gun was developed because of body armor, but not primarily to keep the open side area away from the target. Rather the problem is that when running body armor, the extra padding covering the shoulder essentially does away with the shoulder pocket. Not only is it hard to seat the weapon to start with, but under recoil the butt has a tendency to slide off the slippery cloth-over-armor surface, off the edge of the armor, it just moves around WAY too much. Moving the butt more toward the body centerline does away with that tendency because you're no longer using the shoulder pocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 I think that with time and familiarity you'll find you much prefer the AR-15 to the MP5. German engineering does tend to produce guns that are, how shall I put this, not terribly ergonomic and user friendly. Control layout in particular tends to suck. So you wind up with really elegant designs that are just a bear to use in the real world. Or, as I've heard it said, "A German gun is great, right up until you wrap a human hand around it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 Or, as I've heard it said, "A German gun is great, right up until you wrap a human hand around it." And that's why I shoot Austrian guns --- they're German guns that are great even with a human hand wrapped around it..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 The best of both worlds, definitely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 My observation would be that the majority of successful 3 gunners shoot a somewhat bladed stance with their long guns as opposed to a squared up one. But Matt certainly proves that a squared up stance can be effective and it's more akin to the normal pistol shooting stance. As for the butt on the sternum technique, I hope everybody that I compete against adopts this method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bore Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 From personnel experience I had a lot of trouble transitioning fro the AR to the MP5. It must have been a combination of my long ass arms and the MP5's short ass barrel that led to my trip to the ER. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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