LChico Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Time -- some down time was had, but not really too bad IMHO, but some of this probably could have been avoided by balancing out the size of some of the squads. The size of the squads WAS balanced the day before the match, on paper. We had a significant number of "no shows" (nearly 20) and unfortunately, they did not drop out evenly between squads. Some squads remained full at 13 to 12 shooters and some squads dropped to 8 shooters when 4 shooters did not arrive and did not send notice. Some shooters who were forced to cancel did send notice (late the night before, when it was too late to change anything). There was bad weather and unexpected winter storms that canceled or disrupted air travel in parts of the US. Since the squads were posted on the internet in advance, it was next to impossible to adjust squad size at 8:00 AM on Saturday. Linda Chico (L-2035) 2009 LaRue Tactical Multigun Statistician Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LChico Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 (edited) Fun match, bad scoring, and...as always at Tiger Valley...the porta-johns are clusters at the stat shack instead of being at the (very, very far) ends of the range. Not a problem for guys, really, but some of the ladies seemed displeased Alex I cannot speak about the comments regarding what occurred on the range, since I was pretty busy in Stats. When I arrived Thursday, there were 2 porta-johns near stats, and the other two were scattered at the far, opposite ends of the range. Friday AM, the large truck arrived from the company that services the potra-johns. The driver was unable to get the truck to the two remote porta-johns, because the truck could not navigate in the mud. Staff was sinking to near their knees in some places. We had to load the two remote porta-johns onto a small trailer and used an ATV to drag it back to the stats area at the entrance to the range. The move was required by the Porta-john company & not match administration. Linda Chico (L-2035) 2009 LaRue Tactical Multigun Statistician Edited March 31, 2009 by LChico Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rangerhughes Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 AAR From an RO,s PERSPECTIVE: On Thursday another RO (who is a retired Police Officer from one of the most dangerous cities in the country in the 70s and 80s, working in their tactical section) and myself (a 24 year veteran of the US Army, mostly SOF, PSD contractor, and now police officer) arrived in Texas trough DFW knowing that the weather was a factor and range build with heavy rains with high winds would be difficult, but what the hell!! It’s got to happen. We were picked up by our good friend (34 year veteran of the Dallas PD and good friend, who has been in the tactical arena for most of his carrier as a COP and long time commander of the SWAT Team). On the 2 hour Drive to Waco, we had long discussions about stage development, running of the stages and the rules. We know how difficult it was going to be, running 200 shooters through 8 stages in two days and keeping everyone happy along with consistent scoring: What that means in the real world is RO’s get no breaks, ROs have minimum time for reset, and arbitration of calls would have to happen quick to keep things running smooth but what the hell!! We signed up for it. Arriving at the range we sat down with the match director and he gave us specific guidance: 1. He wants everyone to have fun 2. He wants everyone to know Mark and the Larue Team appreciates what this community has done for them 3. He wants this match to be challenging from a competition stand point but have some tactical teaching points 4. Treat all the same but take a little more time with less experienced 5. And keep things safe. (Safety is our top priority) Moving down range in tornado like wind and rain conditions to observe what used to be an outstanding stage, which now was just a pile of boards I was set back. Two days before the match everything the Larue team had accomplished blown apart in minutes. But what the hell, we just rebuild. On Friday after working all day rebuilding the stage mother nature played havoc on the match again and at 1630 the stage was destroyed for a third time. Thank heavens for Blake, Cody, Austin and many others from the Larue team who did not whine, complain or grip, just started over working into the night to get things rebuilt in true Ranger fashion. Match Day: Other then winds and little cold weather things were good but we had to make a few last minute adjustments to the range to insure consistency and compensate for the high winds. As squads started to arrive I saw familiar faces and watched the quiet professionalism of some, (it reminded me of days long gone, where many operators I worked with over the years thought about, studied and rehearsed their actions in their mind as well as dry drilling prior to jumping out of an aircraft over Grenada or Panama or fast roping from a helicopter into bad guy land some where in the world). It was impressive to see the Cooley's, Horner's, and many others approach the stage and asked the important questions, like: talk to me about this breech door, can I shoot them as I see them, can I clean up my target if not happy with the shot group, can I transition early if I have a problem with my primary. Not worrying about trivial crap or game-ing. It reminded me of a gun fight long ago when I asked a stupid question in the middle of a pretty heated moment and my boss at the time said "shut up and shoot Ranger, Ill tell you when their dead" ROGER THAT!! As for me I enjoyed all the shooters but especially the guys and girls who had never been breeched a door, ran through a shoot house or transitioned to a secondary, after watching their faces, I knew Greg had accomplished what he had set out to do. (Guess that’s why I respect and love the guy so much, he looks out for everyone, after all that was his job for many years coming to the rescue of guys like me in his killer egg). As for the whiners and complainers, what I can say is: watch the guys, who are on top, they are there, not because of bitching or sniveling, but because some where, sometime someone said “shut and shoot, I will tell you when their dead” and they did over and over again until they became the best!! I think all the RO’s attempted to do their best but as most of you know, you can’t please everyone all the time, especially not 200 people but you can fill them full of Texas Brisket and let them shoot a mini gun and most will be happier then a pig in mud. Many thanks to Greg, Mark and all the folks at Larue that shouldered brunt of the work. RLTW just my $.02 Sorry for any spelling or grammar mistakes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vsound Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 I will just reiterate a big thanks to Greg for putting on the match and especially to Linda for the scoring. I have never seen scoring get done so quickly for a match of that size. Kudos, Linda!!!!! Minigun - worth the price of admission alone.. I GOT TO SHOOT A FRICKIN MINIGUN!!!!!! Thanks, Greg! Scoring was inconsistent, but wouldn't take much to get that on track. I had doubts about whether Greg could pull off 170+ shooters on 8 stages over two days. He did it, but just barely. Good job to get it done. Challenging stages that tested things I've never had to do before. Have new things to practice now. Good match all around. I hope to return next year. Don't really care to do another crawl-through-the-tunnel stage (yes, I'm a pansy office boy), but otherwise look forward to what he has in store for future matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maduce Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 I want to take time to thank LaRue Tactical and Greg Coker for the time, money and effort involved in this event. Add to this group the RO's, the unsung hero's who work their butts off to make everyone safe and happy. The RO's arrived on Friday and worked until dark every night. When everyone else was drinking beer and eating at Georges they were worried about making things right for the shooters. They ran 80 stages each day will little break to even go to the bath room. I also want to thank those who took the time to thank them for their hard work. They were over worked and I am proud of the way they handled condition and situations that would have frazzeled the best. Thanks again, T.J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark LaRue Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Sorry Mark, post is personally oriented. Kelly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lefty556 Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Where to begin? How 'bout this: Greg, Mark, Austin, Cody, Blake, Justin, Heidi, John, Rick, Andrew, TJ, Brian, and all of the other RO's whose names I can't remember, THANK YOU! Damn good job guys. The stages were great, the RO's did an outstanding job, the food was excellent, the prize table was unbelievable, and I GOT TO SHOOT A MINIGUN! Thanks for all of the hard work ya'll put in. It was an awesome match. Mark and Greg, Next year, please feel free to put any of the Wounded Warriors on the squad with the Tac Pro Shooting Center crew. We'd love to have them shoot with us. Keep up the good work, and thanks again for an outstanding match! Monte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 (edited) I am new to 3gun , but I did not fall off the Turnip Truck yesterday. The greatest gift my Father taught me was to look at things from 3 sides. Because most things worth wile don't just have two sides, they have more than six sides to them. I can see flaws in many things, But looking for a Flaw First, is a greater flaw. Remember when and ware you are a guest *Side note short story I think worth a read to the end* We had three of the Wounded Warriors on pick up our Squad Sunday morning. and it did slow our squad down and cause a ripple in the next squads. I made a point of Thanking the three of them for their service and said it was an Honor to have them on our squad. The Big guy , as in 6'.4" 350 and 3 feet wide shoulders said it was a honor to serve. Later after the long day ending on stage 6 the RO's let me have one of small 1/3 IPSC targets. I got everyone to autograph the target. This is what the Big Man wrote . "Thanks For Loving Us " SGT Les Abbott Edited March 31, 2009 by AlamoShooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXMXRACER Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 I just want to thank everyone involved with setting up and running this match. The hard work is much appreciated. Shane Guinther Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lefty556 Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 As for the whiners and complainers, what I can say is: watch the guys, who are on top, they are there, not because of bitching or sniveling, but because some where, sometime someone said “shut and shoot, I will tell you when their dead” and they did over and over again until they became the best!! +1 to that statement! rangerhughes, thanks again for working! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
washam427 Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Once again, this being my first big 3-gun shoot and veteran law enforcement officer, I thought the match was ran professionally and very well considering the weather and all. I will definitely be back next year, along with the rest of our little NW Louisiana contingent and can't wait. Thanks to all the RO's for your time and patience with questions. See ya'll next year. SGT Greg Washam Shreveport, LA Police Department Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benelli2 Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 No doubt about it the weather was working against the crew and they stayed in the fight and kept rebuilding the stages and we all pushed through and had a great match. Mark, Greg, TJ, Austin, Blake, Rick, Linda and all the rest, thanks so much for doing it, I know how much work it is and mother nature sure doesn't help. The stages were awesome, challanging and fun, Food was incredible, meeting new folks and shooting with old friends cannot have a value placed on it. The Sponsors due to their generosity and Greg and his teams hard work, gave us a tremendous, unforgettable prize table Looking forward to the match next year, hopefully I will have enough time off built up to come help Greg and crew setup and RO Thanks again for a job well done, and great to see so many LEO, Active Military and past Military jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Here is the deal, people. You are free to praise this match to high heavens or post that it sucked, was the worst ever and you will never return. BUT if there are any more negative comments about specific people (true, untrue, whatever, I don't care) take it someplace else. Go to AR15.com or start your own blog or webpage or whatever. Don't bring it in here. That being said, a big thanks to Mark and Greg and Linda and all the staff for putting on the event. I know it was a lot of hard work and you guys had to battle with the weather. One thing I liked about this match was the shooting problems that Greg presented are not commonly encountered in other events, such as odd rifle angles, support side shooting, hostage designation, etc. The food and prize table were fantastic. And the minigun!!! Best prop ever. The scoring system is definitely the most accuracy oriented of all the three gun events. Plus 2 seconds for a "C" zone hit and +20 seconds for a missed flying clay did change my shooting style (slow down and call shots and don't go for three flying clays as I would have normally done). I think the Horner method and Comstock scoring provide the best balance of speed and accuracy and I would prefer that this match go to one of those methods but if that is what Greg thinks is best, that's cool with me. I do think that this system hurts the less experienced shooters more. There is a constant tension regarding ROs at "outlaw" matches. There is no NROI so consistency is always an issue when using catch-as-can ROs. Of course, the Larue ROs aren't out to get a shooter unlike some (certainly not all) NROI ROs that I have seen in action. Some have a great deal of experience, others are just thrown into the fray to deal with a wide range of skill levels (from godlike to babysteps beginner) and personality types (nice to ehem not so nice) . First off, I would like to thank all the ROs for their hard work. To solve the consistency, I think this match should have a written rule book (copying Ft. Benning or DPMS or SMM3G or whatever) that lays down the law on what a broken clay means or what an edge hit means) to ensure consistency. Stage descriptions and general rules should also be written down and posted (assuming they don't get blown away!) so issues can be settled before the shooter goes to the line. This match was a bit deja vu as to the old SOF matches wherein some ROs saw stages as training exercises. I would instead flip that around and look at stages as an opportunity to demonstrate one's training. Again, another inherent tension where the more experienced shooters generally don't care to be trained during a match whereas many of the newer shooters really appreciate the advice, help and training. I only have two real issues as I am a big ninny. Hot reholstering brings out the lawyer in me. I realize that it is generally not tactically sound to abandon a weapon but I really fear that hot reholstering on the clock is going to lead to someone shooting themselves, particularly with the Glock, M&P or XD platforms. These matches bring out shooters with a wide range of skill and experience and I think that it is an accident waiting to happen. The other issue concerns the 180. This match did not recognize the 180, just unsafe gunhandling. Once again, the 180 provides an easy to enforce sensible rule. There is certainly no 180 on the 2 way range but we aren't on the 2 way range. Given the aformentioned wide array of shooter skill level, I would prefer that the 180 be in effect. Congrats to Daniel for his total domination of the Tactical division (but I did beat you on one stage shooting the FAL!) and I appreciate Daniel loaning Robbie a malfunctioning AR10 as I need all the help I can get. Should have shot a FAL, Robbie! Thanks again to all the staff, the active and retired military and especially to all the Wounded Warriors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiCapMag Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Time -- some down time was had, but not really too bad IMHO, but some of this probably could have been avoided by balancing out the size of some of the squads. The size of the squads WAS balanced the day before the match, on paper. We had a significant number of "no shows" (nearly 20) and unfortunately, they did not drop out evenly between squads. Some squads remained full at 13 to 12 shooters and some squads dropped to 8 shooters when 4 shooters did not arrive and did not send notice. Some shooters who were forced to cancel did send notice (late the night before, when it was too late to change anything). There was bad weather and unexpected winter storms that canceled or disrupted air travel in parts of the US. Since the squads were posted on the internet in advance, it was next to impossible to adjust squad size at 8:00 AM on Saturday. Linda Chico (L-2035) 2009 LaRue Tactical Multigun Statistician Linda, thanks for the explanation. What my comment was based on was the hearsay that there was a squad ahead of us with 16 shooters. From what I am reading today, they may have had some WW's added in -- If I had known that I would have gone down to help tape and carry their kit for them. Glad to get behind those guys anytime! Once again my compliments on the statistician work -- simply amazing! Great Match! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 One more thing, I think it's a great development that the NRA is becoming involved in these events. Thanks to all the NRA staff for their participation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHELLFISH17 Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 (edited) I don't know how any one could complain about any part of that match. It was like Christmas in March, I'll list a few things to help some of yall out. 1.) We got to shoot a mini gun 2.) We got to shoot an OSR 3.) We got to shoot a Short Barreled AR 4.) We got fed good food all day, both days 5.) We got to shoot some of the best/hardest stages I've ran across 6.) We got treated to the best prize table I've seen 7.) We got to shoot with or against some of the best in America. 8.) We got to shoot a mini gun The RO's were fantastic and my gratitude goes out to all of them and the set up staff, stats workers, cooks, TJ, Mark and Greg. You guys accomplished alot and looked good doing it. I'm looking foward to next year! Sheldon Edited March 31, 2009 by SHELLFISH17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle O Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 8.) We got to shoot a mini gun Sheldon Oh, how I miss that sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHolsted Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 8.) We got to shoot a mini gun Sheldon Oh, how I miss that sound. Oh so do I I am still having sweet dreams of the Mini!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks again to everyone that had a part in this match! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike P Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 (edited) What a great match! The match staff was great. The RO's were as enthusiastic as any I've ever seen in spite of the setbacks experienced because of weather. The sponsorship was amazing, simply amazing. Larue Tactical has brought the 3 gun community a winner. From the world class brisket to world class stats crew and a world class shooting facility. Bad ass stages and enthusiastic ROs to run them. THANK YOU and WELL DONE to everyone involved. I kind of liked the scoring too, and the "tactical" format. There were some very different shooting challenges from what one normally sees in competition. It kind of reminded me of some of Alan Shepherds stages, come to think of it so did the freezing cold and mud. The explanations given during the walkthrough were thought provoking, and I think appropriate especially considering the match theme. If they have it again and its where I can, I'll be there. Mike Edited March 31, 2009 by Mike P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
washam427 Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 8.) We got to shoot a mini gun Sheldon Oh, how I miss that sound. You can watch Patrick's video and record the sound to your phone-its a ringtone now!!! hahahahaha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullauto_Shooter Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 I don't know how any one could complain about any part of that match. It was like Christmas in March, I'll list a few things to help some of yall out.1.) We got to shoot a mini gun 2.) We got to shoot an OSR 3.) We got to shoot a Short Barreled AR 4.) We got fed good food all day, both days 5.) We got to shoot some of the best/hardest stages I've ran across 6.) We got treated to the best prize table I've seen 7.) We got to shoot with or against some of the best in America. 8.) We got to shoot a mini gun The RO's were fantastic and my gratitude goes out to all of them and the set up staff, stats workers, cooks, TJ, Mark and Greg. You guys accomplished alot and looked good doing it. I'm looking foward to next year! Sheldon +1 to Sheldon's comments Probably the best Multi-gun match I've ever attended. Stages were the most challenging I've ever seen and took pretty much everyone out of their "comfort zone". Fantastic food served all day long made lunch breaks unnecessary - other MDs take note. Where else can you shoot a Minigun?? Nice meeting and talking with the wounded warriors from Hood - glad they were able to make it to the match. Prize table was out of this world - hope the numerous guns and uppers don't rust from everyone drooling over them. Many generous sponsors, led by LaRue Tactical, made this a very special awards ceremony. Thanks to all the ROs who worked their butts off - they didn't get much of a break and just kept driving on. Only recommended change would be the scoring system (too harsh in my opinion) or at least more consistency applied to how targets were scored (it varied from RO to RO and stage to stage). Also, it was distracting when one of the ROs insisted on talking to me while I was shooting the stage - it seemed he wanted to "coach me", but well intentioned as he was, it was still distracting. But make no mistake about it, this was a fantastic match and I'll definitely be back next year (if I'm not deployed somewhere). Thanks again to Mark LaRue, TJ, Greg Coker, Linda Chico, the Dillon Aero Folks, the Wounded Warrior Project, the great folks cooking world class brisket and sausages, all the hard working ROs, and my new buddies on squad 15. Damn, wish we'd gotten a squad photo. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGDM Posted April 1, 2009 Author Share Posted April 1, 2009 Gosh Dawg. I want to thank everyone for all that was accomplished and truly enjoyed meeting many new folks, especially the fella that came all the way from Britain to shoot the match. The RO's were great and a first for many, might as well get trained at a big one...I did. Linda Chico, nuff said. Mark Fingar and Dave F. were out there running right along the shooters to get great pics. Marty and Dillon Aero, thanks for yer support...again. Kerrin, you jumped right into the pot. The Sponsors were incredible and hope everyone contacts them, they make it happen. Wounded Warriors, thanks again. Hope I did not scare the NRA, thanks Mike. I know this will be successful. I thank the good Lord for all the rain and wind for 9 days and sunshine for 2. The Shooters...thanks for your patience and competitive spirit. TJ, you da Man, next year?? Mark and Team LaRue made this possible and we will make it better next year and hopefully no hay hauling involved. BBQ - Nuff said. I do apologize for turning off the Hooters Girls, just too cold and nasty. I will accept all debrief/AAR comments, that is how we get better. Scoring - it will change. Don't know until you try. Rules will be updated and posted, understood by all. Overall I think is was SAT but could have been better and I will take the HEAT round for that. Multi-Gun will continue to evolve and we will make it mo betta as a collective group. 15-16 May 2010 will be the next one, that is tentative, MTF. Adios Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TossingLead Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Thanks to all that made the match possible. This was my first three-gun match. I had a great time, learned a lot and will be back next year. Thanks to all again Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken hebert Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 I'm putting in my vacation request for May 15-16, 2010 tomorrow when I get to work. suggestions: 1) written stage briefings 2) post stage numbers on the corresponding ranges 3) consistant scoring. (these were new rules, I imagine not all the RO's were totally familiar with them) 4) talk with some USPSA or 3-gun competitors, get some outside input. don't try to shoulder all the responsibility for making it work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark LaRue Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 (edited) Sorry Mark, post is personally oriented.Kelly No worries Kelly, I was responding to remarks that I failed to notice you had edited out ... Tired, sunburnt, behind on emails ... short on patience. ML ETA - Greg, nuff said. :^) The chatter on Stage 2 was part of the stage - "What do you think you're gonna hit with that?" ;-) Edited April 1, 2009 by Mark LaRue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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