Landmines and other penalty obstacles

[shred]

Most of those sorts of stages do little to determine who the best shooter is, which I kinda think is the point of most matches.

For "fun" matches, knock yourselves out

[cas]

...a bunch of do this that or the other that has nothing to do with shooting.

THAT can be applied with a pretty broad brush. Whenever I see skinny young guys sprinting from target array to target array I think "What does running have to do with shooting?" Yet the "gimmick" effects all the shooters the same way.

(and don't even get me started about the midgets who keep laying out our stages )

[mlmiller1]

I think we should stick to shooting challenges and leave the carnival stuff alone. based on the posts so far I seam to hold a minority opinion but that's ok. I just dont really care for stages that throw in a bunch of do this that or the other that has nothing to do with shooting.

Not flaming you & everyone is entitled to their opinion. All stages in uspsa have a bunch of "do this that or the other" unless they are stand & shoots. It is just a matter of which ones you think are shooting challenges & which ones you think are carnival stuff. Wading through a bunch of frangible "mines" is not impractical at all. It forces you to watch where you put your feet. Much more like real life, actually. I suspect it is very rare for soldiers to have a nice flat area in which to engage the enemy. With the breakable clays, you can find out you don't know what you are doing with your feet without having much potential for something to cause you to fall. It is kind of crappy when a mag breaks one but still, it brings out situational awareness.

Sure, most of us aren't soldiers but "where & what is happening around me" are valuable & useful things to learn even just for improving your uspsa shooting & even more so for real life.

MLM

[sslav]

Most of those sorts of stages do little to determine who the best shooter is, which I kinda think is the point of most matches.

If shooting on the move is a legitimate shooting challenge, then why is shooting on the move over uncertain/difficult terrain less of a shooting challenge. Are shooting from a boat, a jetski, a suspended bridge or a rolling rail cart legitimate shooting challenges?

[shred]

Most of those sorts of stages do little to determine who the best shooter is, which I kinda think is the point of most matches.

If shooting on the move is a legitimate shooting challenge, then why is shooting on the move over uncertain/difficult terrain less of a shooting challenge. Are shooting from a boat, a jetski, a suspended bridge or a rolling rail cart legitimate shooting challenges?

Shooting on the move over random terrain is fine since it's about shooting. Shooting while being penalized for not following the dance steps exactly is a dance step competition, not a shooting match.

[mlmiller1]

I believe simulating uneven terrain with clays is an excellent but much safer way to shoot while challenging the shooter's ability to maneuver over uneven terrain. Obviously if there are 10 million clays, with only the tiniest space to "dance" through, I can understand what you are saying. If there are clays scattered over the ground as if you were walking over some rocks & uneven terrain, but without the actual hazard of that terrain, I would say it is an excellent challenge, equal for all shooters. Just an opinion, though.

MLM

[iainmcphersn]

I remember shooting one of those minefield stages. One of our shooters had a broken clay from a spent casing. Never seen that before

[Taildraggerdave]

My local club is fortunate to have an area where they can run a "jungle run" stage where a shooter moves down a dirt trail and engages IDPA targets using natural cover. Today they had a trip wire located about mid-trail that was held with a couple spring clips. If you "tripped' the wire, you'd get a Procedural for it.

Very fun stage.

[ShaunH]

My local club is fortunate to have an area where they can run a "jungle run" stage where a shooter moves down a dirt trail and engages IDPA targets using natural cover. Today they had a trip wire located about mid-trail that was held with a couple spring clips. If you "tripped' the wire, you'd get a Procedural for it.

Very fun stage.

That's a cool idea.

[ShaunH]

[

Shooting on the move over random terrain is fine since it's about shooting. Shooting while being penalized for not following the dance steps exactly is a dance step competition, not a shooting match.

I disagree.

[chuckw]

They had a landmine stage locally this summer at one of the matches. The 'landmines' were clay pigeons, and there were penalties if you broke any. Is this legal?

Seems everyone ignored your question. I say NOT LEGAL because clays are not authorized in pistol matches and there's no such thing as a minus 5 point penalty in the rules. Land mines are just a carnival gimmick. Might be fun, but I don't see how they can be legal.

[ShaunH]

They had a landmine stage locally this summer at one of the matches. The 'landmines' were clay pigeons, and there were penalties if you broke any. Is this legal?

Seems everyone ignored your question. I say NOT LEGAL because clays are not authorized in pistol matches and there's no such thing as a minus 5 point penalty in the rules. Land mines are just a carnival gimmick. Might be fun, but I don't see how they can be legal.

I was told they were legal. While there is nothing in the rules for a 5 point penalty, a procedural is -10 so if it wouldn't have been a charity match, then it would have had to been -10. If the stage description says its a penalty then it would be assessed accordingly. All kinds of props are used in USPSA that aren't stipulated specifically in the rule book. A breaching door was used at Area 1 this year. If you ran around you got a penalty and if you couldn't go through the doorway it was a penalty, but the door itself isn't mentioned in the rule book as being a sanctioned prop. You didn't shoot the clays for points.

Edited November 23, 2008 by ShaunH

[Coolduckboy]

They had a landmine stage locally this summer at one of the matches. The 'landmines' were clay pigeons, and there were penalties if you broke any. Is this legal?

Seems everyone ignored your question. I say NOT LEGAL because clays are not authorized in pistol matches and there's no such thing as a minus 5 point penalty in the rules. Land mines are just a carnival gimmick. Might be fun, but I don't see how they can be legal.

I was told they were legal. While there is nothing in the rules for a 5 point penalty, a procedural is -10 so if it wouldn't have been a charity match, then it would have had to been -10. If the stage description says its a penalty then it would be assessed accordingly. All kinds of props are used in USPSA that aren't stipulated specifically in the rule book. A breaching door was used at Area 1 this year. If you ran around you got a penalty and if you couldn't go through the doorway it was a penalty, but the door itself isn't mentioned in the rule book as being a sanctioned prop. You didn't shoot the clays for points.

Ain't that for sure. That Breeching Door as totally random on the way the pins broke. Land Mines might be a Carnival Gimmick but not everything can be straight and forward, Can't we have a little fun in this sport?

[boz1911]

I have shot several stages where the clay pigeons were sprinkled on the ground and procedural imposed per broken clay, whether you stepped on it or a mag change broke one. The double tap, this year had the sticks on the barrels....

http://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s93/for...C08Stage2-2.flv

Below is the stage from last months EAGC match with the minefield....I think BOZ stepped on one!!

I don't think so Scooter. Not the first run, nor the second........

Cool stage, was able to circumvent the first part of the "T" but the second part required some pretty good balance. I believe Draw and Duck may have killed a pigeon..

[bpowe]

A late shot in a timed fire exercise is a -5 penalty... so they to happen. But the several landmine stage I've shot all gave a -10 procedural penalty. The clay is NOT a target they're a prop, so it is legal.

And of course, the slot at the bottom of the score entry page in Easy Win Score labeled "additional penalties" lets you add whatever penalty you want to the shooter. That's how you account for non-A minor rifle hits in a multi gun match.

Edited November 24, 2008 by bpowe

[rupie]

I shot a snakes on the plane idpa stage that had mini clays for a snake head and the body made of wood, it was fun.

[ShaunH]

A late shot in a timed fire exercise is a -5 penalty... so they to happen. But the several landmine stage I've shot all gave a -10 procedural penalty. The clay is NOT a target they're a prop, so it is legal.

And of course, the slot at the bottom of the score entry page in Easy Win Score labeled "additional penalties" lets you add whatever penalty you want to the shooter. That's how you account for non-A minor rifle hits in a multi gun match.

Yep, thank you.

[mlmiller1]

First time I shot a match with clays on the ground was the Colorado state uspsa match. That level(II or III?) match had to have headquarters approval on every stage so yes, I would say it is legal or it was @3 years ago.

MLM

[chuckw]

The clay is NOT a target they're a prop, so it is legal.

Where are "penalty props" mentioned in the rulebook?

Can I also make up my own rules and declare any shot hitting a prop like a wall is a -5 point penalty?

[joseywales]

I've used this as a prop in a match, and have been to matches where it's used.

This type of prop does force you to 'watch your feet/dance steps/etc', which is a distraction from the shooting - so I can see the challenge.

What is irritating is that you not only have to watch your feet, but watch/control where your magazine falls too.

Being penalized for mags breaking clay pigeons is the problem I see in using this as a prop.

That's too much emphasis on the 'distraction factor' for me.

I'm with Shred - big match - don't use it, just for fun - knock yourself out.

Edited November 24, 2008 by joseywales

[ShaunH]

The clay is NOT a target they're a prop, so it is legal.

Where are "penalty props" mentioned in the rulebook?

Can I also make up my own rules and declare any shot hitting a prop like a wall is a -5 point penalty?

10.2 Procedural Penalties – Specific Examples

10.2.2 A competitor who fails to comply with a procedure specified in the

written stage briefing will incur one procedural penalty for each occur-

USPSA Handgun Rules, January 2008 Edition • 43

rence.

Penalty Prop

10.2.5 In a Cooper Tunnel, a competitor who disturbs one or more pieces of

the overhead material will receive one procedural penalty for each

piece of overhead material which falls during the course of fire.

Overhead material which falls as a result of the competitor bumping or

striking the uprights, or as a result of muzzle gases or recoil, will not

be penalized.

Not that penalty props are expressly discussed, but one is listed as a specific example; therefore they do exist and are used legally.

As for the -5 I don't know.

[bpowe]

I've been trying to remember where and when I saw the first landmine stage. It was at an Area 4 match but I can't remember if it was in Dinasaur Vally or at Texarkana. Either way it was 6-8 years ago and would have been reviewed by John Amadon (I think he was head of NROI then).

The contraversy at the time had nothing to do with the clays but that the stage was considered a 180 trap where several people were DQd.

Bill

[caps]

Not that penalty props are expressly discussed, but one is listed as a specific example; therefore they do exist and are used legally.

PMFJI but the wooden slats on a Cooper Tunnel are NOT props. They're fault lines used to define cover. If you disturb one it's the same penalty as shooting when stepping over a fault line on the ground.

[ShaunH]

Not that penalty props are expressly discussed, but one is listed as a specific example; therefore they do exist and are used legally.

PMFJI but the wooden slats on a Cooper Tunnel are NOT props. They're fault lines used to define cover. If you disturb one it's the same penalty as shooting when stepping over a fault line on the ground.

Actually, the slat has to fall, not just be disturbed. I can see where the slats could be considered a fault line because it "defines cover" or restricts movement, (I would like to know where you got this information) but you could say the same about the clays as they restrict movement.

Edited November 25, 2008 by ShaunH

[caps]

(I would like to know where you got this information)

IIRC it was Vince Pinto, but I forget if I sent him an email or if he posted something here.