badchad Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 I remember hearing on my Matt Burkett video that with shotguns the worst thing you can do is miss and the second worst thing you can do is load an extra round. Ideally you finish with an empty gun. I thought the last part was said kind of jokingly but watching my double alpha multi-gun video it looks like Taran Butler always does finish with an open bolt. So is that always the literal goal when shooting a shotgun stage? Take enough time on each shot to ensure you don’t miss and plan your reloads so you finish absolutely empty? So far I have always tried to have a shell or two extra, just in case, but maybe it’s better to take slightly more time with my shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike.45 Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 It sounds like you are doing it exactly right. I always, without fail, load an extra shell if the CoF has a loading element. This process will only add an extra 0.5 to 1 second to your overall time and a miss on the last shot (statistically the most likely miss in a shotgun CoF) to lock back on an empty gun will always add between 4 - 6 seconds to your time. This may seem a long time to load one and shoot one but I have seen and measured this many times, its basically the time it takes you to assess the fact you firstly missed, secondly to register the gun is now empty and then to physically grab and load another shell and engage the target. The low 4 second times are where weak hand loaders already have a spare shell in their weak hands holding the forend, the 6 second times are where people have to grab the extra shell from a belt, holder etc. Re watching Taran and others, are you sure they are not shooting the gun empty by engaging the last target twice to go to lock back prior to dumping the empty gun ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benelli2 Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Mike, you are so conservative, I remember once when you said there were only ten people in the world that could make a shot, then Keurt, Trapr and me made, not sure who the other seven are! Oops, back to the question at hand, If there is available time while moving then load an extra or two on a long course, but if it is going to run up the time getting those rounds in, you have to roll the dice and place your shots to end up with the fastest time you can possibly get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Let,s see. Kurt, Kirt, Kert, Kirk, Curt, Cirk and now Keurt...how many more names will I get in Enosland?? My goal is to finish with the least amount of movement, misses, and loading as possible. For empty gun starts I will almost always load just what it takes. For a course of fire I plan on loading just what it takes, if I miss I will just make it up as I go. I don't care how many are left in the gun at the end as the unload isn't on the clock, but then again I would hate to end with 9 extra shells in the thing as I could have been a lot faster by not loading so much. I am not like alot of the shotgun guys and I see my front sight for each shot where as the reall good shotgunners will always tell you to look at the target, needless to say I am real slow, but I don't miss much either Actually there were 4 out of ten there in Greece...you skipped Dan Ernest! KeurtM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busyhawk Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Let,s see. Kurt, Kirt, Kert, Kirk, Curt, Cirk and now Keurt...how many more names will I get in Enosland?? KurtM, why do you always think it is you they are refering to???:-) Remember that some matches require an empty SG if you are going to abandon, Benelli's are a little harder to empty by racking only...! Just like the rest if I can reload more and there is no time problem I will just in case otherwise try to make it like KurtM and make shots count...saving time in the long run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 BusyHawk....Because I have an ego bigger than Mt. Rushmore! ME, ME, ME, I, I, I,... there isn't an I in TEAM but there IS a ME!!! It,s ALL about ME, ME, ME!!! Since I was in Greece with Benelli2, and was one of only 4 Americans at the shoot and I KNOW that there was NO KEURTMS in the crowd and since My name ( ME, ME, ME) is close to KEURTM and no one elses was I can only assume ( yea I KNOW!) ME,ME,ME. I KNOW ALL the great Iron sight shooters in 3-gun and I KNOW there isn't a KIRKM and since it is close to my name (ME, ME, ME) I assume (yea I KNOW!) they mean ME, ME, ME....but I could be wrong! BTW If they were talking about Bustylock, or RustyGlock I would have assumed ( YEA...I...KNOOOOW!!!) It was all about you! "The Real KurtM" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benelli2 Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 What a country!!!!!!!! i LOVE u MAN, you are one of a kind, kURT m THAT IS, see u soon, Europe aint safe next year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 (edited) Neither is Alabama, this year!!!!!!!!!!!!!! See you both soon,.......and man this year is going to be full of surprises????????? Chad, look at it this way, in NASCAR I'm sure they would like to go across the finish line with a pint of fuel in the tank, but I doubt very seriously they aim for that. There are simply too many reasons to need an extra shot, and normally there is always a place to load an extra, if you have the time to load 3 its just as easy to load 4, or throw one extra in on your way to your first shooting postition, and if you only NEED one then its just as easy to throw in 2. Ideally, yeah having an empty gun at the end of the COF would be perfect, but is Matt going to just load three from his speed loader or just shove the whole thing in and have an extra??????????????? Trapr Edited October 21, 2008 by bigbrowndog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ERIC Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 You forgot to mention the 3rd worst thing which is to finish the stage with extra rounds in the shotgun. I used to always load an extra round. 50% of the time, I needed that extra round. I recently decided to load assuming I won't miss. If I do miss, I'll make it up before I go empty. In other words, play to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpeltier Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 I remember hearing on my Matt Burkett video that with shotguns the worst thing you can do is miss and the second worst thing you can do is load an extra round. Ideally you finish with an empty gun. I thought the last part was said kind of jokingly I don't think he was joking. I agree with his statement and always try to finish with an empty gun and all targets hit one for one. But I also carry plenty of extra ammo cause the shotgun gremlins always seem to show up. You know the ones that move targets or hold up steel etc., sometimes they take ammo out of my shotgun, and switch chokes on me when im not looking. The only thing that seems to keep them away is more practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badchad Posted October 22, 2008 Author Share Posted October 22, 2008 Re watching Taran and others, are you sure they are not shooting the gun empty by engaging the last target twice to go to lock back prior to dumping the empty gun ? I checked again through the 2006 multi-gun nationals (my only multi-gun video) and sure enough, every time (4-5 times) Taran had to load during the run and finished a stage with a shotgun, at the unload and show clear command he just held up his empty shotgun. I can't say if he dumped any rounds transitioning to another gun as the target array wasn’t so clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badchad Posted October 22, 2008 Author Share Posted October 22, 2008 Chad, look at it this way, in NASCAR I'm sure they would like to go across the finish line with a pint of fuel in the tank, but I doubt very seriously they aim for that. There are simply too many reasons to need an extra shot, and normally there is always a place to load an extra, if you have the time to load 3 its just as easy to load 4, or throw one extra in on your way to your first shooting postition, and if you only NEED one then its just as easy to throw in 2. That's what I would think as well but watching Taran shoot I'm questioning it. On a shotgun only, 18 rounds stage, using his four round stripper things, he would shoot 4, load 3, shoot 4 load 2 on down the line, always loading while moving, but progressively loading less than he shot until he finished empty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 I generally try to build up a 1-shell buffer early in the stage, and then maintain that throughout. Ideally, I will finish the stage with that one shell in the chamber and an empty mag. Of course, I won't do this in circumstances where loading the extra shell will incur a huge time penalty (e.g. a standing load). The extra shell takes a tad longer to insert, but the flip side is that it instills in me the confidence to push my rate of fire. Don't underestimate the value of confidence. By the way, for outlaw matches, I'm a big fan of the 10+1 mag tube in Tactical. Although I start with 8+1 in the gun, I have a lot more flexibility as to where I can reload later on the stage. Often I find I can stuff one shell into the mag tube immediately after the beep, provided there is significant movement to the first shooting position. Likewise, when the stage presents an opportunity for 9-shots from one location, I can exploit this without running to an open bolt. All upside, very little downside IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 i've got video of guys mistakenly loading an extra stick and burning all 4 over the last popper or clay. takes more time to burn than just put the safety on. extra rounds are good insurance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike.45 Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Nelly2, I didnt say that !! Barry did and I cussed him the second he said it ! As for KatieM, Badchad you are right , if great shotgunners like Mr T shoots like that then KittyM should pay some attention ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 AHHHH...more names from across the sea! Go back to your beat "gumshoe" By the by IF your ego can take it and you attend the High Plains Shotgun challenge, you will get to meet BustyLock in person His new name is "The man of Steel", and there aint no way you can ruin that one. As for leaving the gun dry, I like to do this really cool "unload" maneuver with the Benelli, and if it is empty you just can't do it! DurtM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spearogun Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 I shoot with Taran, and his view on shotgun stages is to not have any misses and to finish empty. Misses and extra loading add time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 As a mere mortal who occasionally does miss a target.... And without invoking the ... I shoot with (insert your particular shooting god) ... and trying to copy someone whose shooting has no resemblance to what I can do.... (Just MY skill level) I like an oh shit shot in my gun. If I can stuff an extra in there somewhere I will do so. To burn it if I don't need it takes .2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spearogun Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 As a mere mortal who occasionally does miss a target.... And without invoking the ... I shoot with (insert your particular shooting god) ... and trying to copy someone whose shooting has no resemblance to what I can do.... (Just MY skill level)I like an oh shit shot in my gun. If I can stuff an extra in there somewhere I will do so. To burn it if I don't need it takes .2. I too like to have an extra shell in there when I finish a stage. I usually have a miss or drop a shell somewhere on the stage so I either run dry in the middle or have to modify my loading throughout the stage. I actually kind of like it when I have a miss and it forces me to think on the moment and adjust my loading count. As far as what Taran said, when I first started shooting 3 gun I asked him what his theory on shotgun stages was. His response was that when he started shooting 3 gun, a lot of the shooters had a few misses on the stages and usually ended with a handfull of shells in the gun. Or they just kept shooting until the gun was dry and then reloading it completely. This is why he and proabably the majority of shooters now a days figure out how many shells they are going to load and where on the stage to load them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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