USPSA scoring of multigun

[vsound]

223 and 7.62X39 the two rds used by most of the world's armies should be major.

Disagree - minor. Not really fair to the guys shooting .308

Put them in Heavy Metal. Leave it up to the match organizers to decide what is Heavy Metal, but make it clear up front.

If someone chooses to shoot .308 in Lim, Tac, or Open, so be it, but there's so few of them that I don't think it's worth the headache of having major/minor.

[StealthyBlagga]

My 2 cents worth as an RO and a shooter: I like a simple, quick-to-score system, because it allows us to run more elaborate and interesting stages for the shooters in the given time available. I like the simplicity and speed of time-plus scoring, and I fail to see why it is a problem unless you are dogmatic about major/minor scoring. Some people claim that time-plus does not reward accuracy - I call BS... just make the targets smaller or further away. For me its a no brainer, and I can't for the life of me understand why USPSA is making such a dogs breakfast of this. I do want USPSA administrative rules and RO standard to become more prominent at matches, because we need more standardization, but not at the expense of having to swallow the silly San Angelo nonsense.

[Religious Shooter]

If someone chooses to shoot .308 in Lim, Tac, or Open, so be it, but there's so few of them that I don't think it's worth the headache of having major/minor.

+1.

If you take a look at the shooters in Open/Lim/Tac 99-100% of them utilize a major shotgun, major pistol and minor rifle.

At best, major rifle shooters will be 1-3% of the participants in Open/Lim/Tact. At my local matches 9/10 times there actually 0% of the shooters that shoot major.

If a unified power factor is used (with 2/3 of the guns used to determine major scoring) only 0-3% of the actual shooters in Lim/Open/Tact will be adversely affected.

Take a look at USPSA matches at all levels... almost nobody uses major rifle.

[Religious Shooter]

To encapsulate a Unified Power Factor with 2/3:

* Rewards Power (DVC is USPSA.)

* Is as fast as a regular USPSA comstock match to score.

* Doesn't require the $$$ modification of the USPSA scoring program.

* Doesn't require special score sheets.

* Gives a more balanced mix of the imporance of speed and accuracy than the other scoring systems.

* Familiarity. The scoring procedure and process is the same used by the 100's of USPSA pistol matches held around the country.

[kurtm]

Why make it all major...let,s make it all minor, lets score ALL of it minor and that way we don't need to worry about what ANYONE is shooting, Accuracy would have to go up in order to win and that is a good thing! "KIRKM" ( the evil twin of KurtM ) After all that would be the D on DVC

[Jack T]

Why make it all major...let,s make it all minor, lets score ALL of it minor and that way we don't need to worry about what ANYONE is shooting, Accuracy would have to go up in order to win and that is a good thing! "KIRKM" ( the evil twin of KurtM ) After all that would be the D on DVC

Been saying this for years, but I generally get more flack than I can handle in my fragile condition. I have no problem droping my Open Divsion PF down to minor and I love shooting a minor PF limited gun. Hell of a lot more fun and cuts down considerably on the cost of powder and wear on the gun.

I still like six (6) points to neutralize Time Plus Scoring, makes you have to shoot accurately and you don't have to do math in the head, elaborate scores sheets etc. Gotta shoot a least 2-Cs, A/D, etc. Failure to neutralize = 3 seconds unless you are from Texas then it is 5 seconds. This takes the Major/Minor scoring problems out of the equation and definitely awards accuracy.

Want to make it harder, do seven (7) points to neutralize. Then you generally tripple the targets (Minor) just to make sure you have your points if you can't call the hits.

Edited October 10, 2008 by Jack T

[warpspeed]

Why make it all major...let,s make it all minor, lets score ALL of it minor and that way we don't need to worry about what ANYONE is shooting, Accuracy would have to go up in order to win and that is a good thing! "KIRKM" ( the evil twin of KurtM ) After all that would be the D on DVC

Where I do not shoot all that much in general I really do like the 3gun / multigun matches.

I think that making all of it minor would not be bad.

[bigbrowndog]

I think I mentioned the minor thing, briefly on a previous post, Relig, if you are so adamant about shorting Major pf shooters out of points on rifle and not giving them the points that they deserve, then why not just go ahead and make it all minor, as KurtM suggested it would easily eliminate your problem, and you could allow your fellow competitors to shoot 9mm for pistol and save money on ammo and not have to worry about that danged old inconvenient PF/points crap!!.................or just go to time+.

Flexmoney suggested that if one of your guns is minor then all your scores should be minor, that would make it easier for your shooters too.

Personally I feel whatever gun you choose to shoot should be scored appropriately, for USPSA, if not then its IMGA scored (time+)

trapr

Edited October 10, 2008 by bigbrowndog

[Jack T]

I have never shot a RM3G or similar venue, may do so some day, and I can see where the .308 guys want to get rewarded for Major PF when shooting against the .223. These are matches where the terrain will dictate what weapons platform would best accomplish the task and the .308 rules.

The majority of the USPSA match stages are designed where the .308 is not competetive against the .223 and is not a viable choice. This is why it has its own division. It's like shooting a .45 in production, no problem, but you are still going to get scored minor.

Why complicate the system for 1-2% of the shooters who may choose to shoot a .308 in Open/Limited/Tactical Divsion.

I am not a fan of even having Power Factors. I have seen too many shooters beat the system. I should call it what it is; We have quite a few cheaters out there that bring hot loads for the chrono and shoot light loads during the match. We all know it happens.

Hell, I have to be very careful when I shoot my 14" AR (16" Barrel OAL) that I am making at least minor. Most factory loads are just below the cut off so I HAVE to reload to make sure I make Minor.

I like Comstock for reward of accuracy, I like Time Plus for ease of scoring/administration.

I will score all of our local matches with the 6 points or better to neutralize, using the Comstock Major/Minor point structure with Time + scoring. I will do this for both pistol and 3 Gun Matches from now on.

I was trying other systems, Straight Time +, etc. Horner system doesn't interest me as you are still dealing with too much information on a single target. Would have to walk arround with a score card to remember; how much down for major or minor corresponding to the hit on the target. I want simplicity that still rewards accuracy. This is why I think the 6 points or better to neutralize does both.

The club decided to drop it's USPSA affiliation, so we are an outlaw club. Have more fun doing it like this because now we set stages up for fun and not have to worry about how many shots are taken from any position and all the other rules that get in the way of just having fun!!

Regards,

Jack T.

Edited October 11, 2008 by Jack T

[DeweyH]

Why don't we just score the DIVISION. If you shoot in the Production Division you are scored minor regardless of what you shoot. Add a Heavy Metal Division for those that want to shoot major and make Limited and Tactical score minor.

If we define our divisions accurately, it shouldn't matter whether it is scored Major or Minor since everyone in the division will be scored against the same standard.

[Religious Shooter]

As I noted the great majority of Open/Lim/Tac shooters shoot: Major shotgun, Major pistol and Minor rifle.

If you make it all minor:

* You don't reward Power.

* You are going to force the Open/Lim/Tac shooters to buy new weapons (if they don't have it already). Thats about another $1000-$4500 for a new pistol and accessories. And whatever a shotgun costs these days.

And shooting major is a lot more fun than shooting minor.

So you are going to make it a bullseye sport.

[kurtm]

Am I to assume that making "minor rifle" major just because your pistol and shotgun "can" be loaded to major rewards power?? How can you have it both ways? It makes just as much sense to score it all minor if one and only one gun makes minor, as it does to score it all major if only two make major. I guess if we scored it all major the hosers would love it....so why don't you like time plus and two D hit neutralizes...that is a hoser friendly way to do things also! You can't argue both sides but it is amusing to see it done! KIRKM

[Religious Shooter]

Am I to assume that making "minor rifle" major just because your pistol and shotgun "can" be loaded to major rewards power?? How can you have it both ways? It makes just as much sense to score it all minor if one and only one gun makes minor, as it does to score it all major if only two make major. I guess if we scored it all major the hosers would love it....so why don't you like time plus and two D hit neutralizes...that is a hoser friendly way to do things also! You can't argue both sides but it is amusing to see it done! KIRKM

A. If you make it all minor you are forcing people to buy minor pistols and possibly minor shotguns to be competitive.

B. If you use 2/3 for determining major... as a whole the membership don't have to shell as much $$$.

If you don't think B is a better choice and makes much more sense...

But hell...

Again... 97-100% of the shooters shot 2 major guns and one minor gun. By in large nothing adverse would affect these shooters by going 2/3.

By making it all minor or making it all major (instead of using 2/3 to determine scoring) you are effectively get rid of Power.

[Benelli Chick]

The shotgun can be taken out of the mix. It is usually used on steel or clays which are all A's. PF doesn't matter.

If you use slugs, you can score all shotguns major. Don't mix shotgun slugs for A,C etc instead of 1 big hole is good enough, with paper for minor guns. You can then worry just about rifle and pistol.

It doesn't seem to be fair, if you need a power factor, to randomly choose up or down. If you have a power factor, use it correctly. If you use rifle steel on a stage with pistol paper, then just score it for the pistol. A's see no power factor! Same, you could do rifle paper and pistol steel.

If power factor needs to be taken into account, then do it right! If you want the scoring to be the same for everyone, skip PF!

USPSA counts speed, POWER, and accuracy! Power seems important to them, so you should use it! If I were shooting a .308, and got a C, I would want more points!!

Just my .02.

[DeweyH]

It appears as if the prevailing opinion as to "why comstock scoring doesn't work" for multi gun matches is the difficulty of using it to score a mixture of major and minor PF weapons. It seems the answer is to score all 3 guns the same. Is the debate: whether it should be all major or all minor? If all weapons are scored the same will it make a difference whether it is Major or Minor?

[kurtm]

Last I checked it is VERY easy to load DOWN to minor with both .45 AND .40, so WHY does anyone need to buy a "different pistol". As Benelli Chick pointed out shotgun really score hit or miss so it is out of the equation. Since 9 /10th of all shooters shoot a minor rifle I fail to see the "disadvantage of all minor. I have seen a lot of "failures at the chrono" as of late so what makes you think "all these guys" are shooting major??

BTW with mags these days your "at a dissadvantage"just doesn't wash HSmith mags for s_i hold 22 rounds a 9mm for the same gun holds 23.

Once again who cares what USPSA does, there are 7 ( yep I miss counted the first time ) major matches with prize table well over the $100,000 mark in a year, and tons of section and area matches that run the way the M.D. wants NOT USPSA....so who cares??

BTW ALL Outlaw matches run just a power floor of 9mm, and noone seems to be at a great disadvantage with their USPSA pistol. KIRKM (the other rifle guy)

[kurtm]

Denise, PLEASE quit saying your .02 cents worth. You and J.J. run one fo the two longest lasting 3-gun matches in the U.S. I would think your opinion would be in the .25 range KURTM

[J-Ho]

BTW with mags these days your "at a dissadvantage"just doesn't wash HSmith mags for s_i hold 22 rounds a 9mm for the same gun holds 23.

BTW ALL Outlaw matches run just a power floor of 9mm, and noone seems to be at a great disadvantage with their USPSA pistol. KIRKM (the other rifle guy)

See that 1 extra round would 'force' everyone to buy a new pistol!!!!

RS you seem to be kind of stuck on getting equipment to make you competitive. I think you need to be competitive first.

[Religious Shooter]

BTW with mags these days your "at a dissadvantage"just doesn't wash HSmith mags for s_i hold 22 rounds a 9mm for the same gun holds 23.

BTW ALL Outlaw matches run just a power floor of 9mm, and noone seems to be at a great disadvantage with their USPSA pistol. KIRKM (the other rifle guy)

See that 1 extra round would 'force' everyone to buy a new pistol!!!!

RS you seem to be kind of stuck on getting equipment to make you competitive. I think you need to be competitive first.

You know everybody else has been pretty good about the personal attacks...

If you don't think people will see the need to change pistols if you make it all minor (or major) without 2/3... so be it.

But as a whole do USPSA shooters enjoy shooting major more than shooting minor? Shooting minor you need to give up some speed as accuracy becomes more of a premium.

Personally I like shooting major speed/style instead of minor speed/style. And I believe the majority of the USPSA shooters do too.

[Religious Shooter]

If power factor needs to be taken into account, then do it right! If you want the scoring to be the same for everyone, skip PF!

USPSA counts speed, POWER, and accuracy! Power seems important to them, so you should use it! If I were shooting a .308, and got a C, I would want more points!!

IF you were shooting a .308. But you don't. And 97-100% of the Open/Tac/Lim shooters don't either.

The whole problem with the Comstock scoring in MG is the need to assign different power factors to each gun. In order to do that you need to do funky and relatively time consuming things with the current scoring program. In addition the RO has to differentiate the target and say wether it is a rifle, a pistol or a shotgun target before calling the hit. And the scorekeeper has to write it down in specific sections of the scoresheet. And you can't always just use one type of scoresheet.

All that takes additional time. AFAIK that is what we have now. A system that has very few users.

If you change the scoring program... you will still have the added burden of the above and tou will also need significantly more keystrokes to enter scores vs. one PF with 2/3.

If you want to have USPSA continue to have an assigned power factor to each gun... how would you fix the current system?

If you want the scoring to be the same for everyone, skip PF!

In case that was directed to me... I don't want to have scoring to be the same for everyone. I want to reward Power.

[kellyn]

A. If you make it all minor you are forcing people to buy minor pistols and possibly minor shotguns to be competitive.

B. If you use 2/3 for determining major... as a whole the membership don't have to shell as much $$$.

If you don't think B is a better choice and makes much more sense...

I don't believe this to be an accurate statement. Kurt, Ted Puente and I regularly shoot major power .40s at large outlaw 3 gun matches. I did at RM3G and unless your name is Daniel Horner, I beat you or you were not there. Although to be honest, I did shoot a 9mm at CMMG and Blue Ridge and again unless your name is Daniel Horner, I beat you or you were not there. Seems like 9mm or .40 is not making too much difference in my performance! People need not rush out and buy high cap 9mms to be competitive in outlaw.

I appreciate the argument that outlaw scoring does not reward power. Time plus scoring is however efficient, easier to understand and cheaper as shooters may use 9mms if they so desire.

The other thing I fear is that someone is going to come up with some sort of competitive major rifle making .223s non-competitive in USPSA. When that happens the cost of this sport is going to skyrocket even further as we'll all be shooting some special $1 a piece handforged case that we scurry around for hours on the bays making sure we pick up each and every case.

And I just can't get on board calling .223 "major." I don't care how many armies issue it!

JackT, .308 is never really competitive against .223s in either outlaw or USPSA. Yes, I know Kurt did well with one at SOF, but that was 2500 years ago (and he was beat by .223s) The only way it would be if it was a USPSA/IPSC match and all the rifle targets were paper and they were all past 100 or even 200 yards. And even then I'm not so sure.

[Religious Shooter]

BTW with mags these days your "at a dissadvantage"just doesn't wash HSmith mags for s_i hold 22 rounds a 9mm for the same gun holds 23.

Hey that's cool! HSMITH .40 mags hold 22 rounds? If that is so... why would the HSMITH 9MM mags only hold 23?

[Religious Shooter]

I don't believe this to be an accurate statement. Kurt, Ted Puente and I regularly shoot major power .40s at large outlaw 3 gun matches. I did at RM3G and unless your name is Daniel Horner, I beat you or you were not there. Although to be honest, I did shoot a 9mm at CMMG and Blue Ridge and again unless your name is Daniel Horner, I beat you or you were not there. Seems like 9mm or .40 is not making too much difference in my performance! People need not rush out and buy high cap 9mms to be competitive in outlaw.

Uhh... I'm not in the same league as you or KirkM.

But I am in the same league as the guy two places above me and the guy two places below me.

Who's to say that my using a 9MM wasn't a factor in me beating those two guys below me?

But for arguments sake... let's say it doesn't. Then the only difference is in how it match will be shot.

Do you think the average USPSA shooter prefers to shoot the match with major speed scoring? Or minor speed scoring?

Edited October 11, 2008 by Religious Shooter

[kellyn]

I think in the pistol context most USPSA shooters do like to shoot major (I do) but that's just a guess. But this is not about pistol shooting in isolation. It's about multigun scoring. USPSA pistol shooters and multigun competitors are not necessarily the same people, the Miller boys being excellent examples.

I, for one, do not mind San Angelo scoring. But I understand it. Most shooters don't have a handle on how USPSA scoring even works whereas time plus is easy to understand. Again my favorite scoring is the "bullseye" Horner scoring method which I feel is the best balance between speed and accuracy.

Certainly the marketplace of 3 gun matches prefers time plus scoring. USPSA multigun is on the ropes (albeit for more reasons than just scoring) whereas outlaw is thriving. So any arguments about popularity of scoring system go to time plus by a large margin.

[J-Ho]

BTW with mags these days your "at a dissadvantage"just doesn't wash HSmith mags for s_i hold 22 rounds a 9mm for the same gun holds 23.

BTW ALL Outlaw matches run just a power floor of 9mm, and noone seems to be at a great disadvantage with their USPSA pistol. KIRKM (the other rifle guy)

See that 1 extra round would 'force' everyone to buy a new pistol!!!!

RS you seem to be kind of stuck on getting equipment to make you competitive. I think you need to be competitive first.

You know everybody else has been pretty good about the personal attacks...

Look, I'm not trying to attack you so much as what seems to be a common attitude. It's more like constructive criticism. The gear doesn't make the shooter. I'm no Kurt Miller either, but what I have noticed is the top shooters that I have seen (who don't have a financial interest in promoting certain products) don't really care about the latest and greatest so much as just having a good reliable set of guns that run and they are familiar with. The guns tend to be VERY broken in. Yes there are people who like to get the newest toys, but IMHO those who have well worn guns tend to end up on top more consistantly. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it is better to shoot that shop.

Again, not trying to get personal, but in what started as a rules discussion, you went back to your argument about equipment. If there is anything lost by shooting a 40 instead of 9 don't you think it might be offset by shooting the hell out of the 40 and getting good with it? That and if you don't run mags dry, you are at a small advantage using a 40. (I'll go down the equipment road for a minute) Let's assume both 40 and 9 are shooting minor. If you don't run a mag dry and the capacities are only 1-3 rounds different it's a wash. No advantage for the extra rounds 95% of the time, 5% or so when you do shoot past the capacity of the 40 but not the 9. Proper planning could probably eliminate this all together, but hey, if I make a plan it doesn't mean I remember to do everything. The bigger diameter of the 40 might just get you a score that the 9 wouldn't. Not often, but it happens now and then, I'd say about as often as when an extra round is needed. The little tiny unimportant details could probably be argued over for years, but I think worrying about having the 100% perfect equipment doesn't get you as far as practice with your 95% perfect equipment.

Just my opinion and observations, I'm not trying to go after you personally so please don't take it that way.