Can’t get my pistol from FFL, help!

[donato]

I purchased a firearm from an out-of-state FFL and had it overnighted to my local FFL. The firearm was signed for on Saturday morning by my local FFL. It’s now Monday night and I and still don’t have my firearm and the FFL isn’t returning my calls. It was a $4,600 NIB Wilson Supergrade so I’m very frustrated at this point. I’ve dealt with other FFLs in the past and my experience has been same day transfer.

Can the FFL keep the firearm indefinitely because they are “too busy” to process the transfer? Do I have any legal recourse? Who is the legal owner of the firearm, (not funny but ATF didn’t know the answer to this question)? Help!!!

[maineshootah]

I purchased a firearm from an out-of-state FFL and had it overnighted to my local FFL. The firearm was signed for on Saturday morning by my local FFL. It’s now Monday night and I and still don’t have my firearm and the FFL isn’t returning my calls. It was a $4,600 NIB Wilson Supergrade so I’m very frustrated at this point. I’ve dealt with other FFLs in the past and my experience has been same day transfer.

Can the FFL keep the firearm indefinitely because they are “too busy” to process the transfer? Do I have any legal recourse? Who is the legal owner of the firearm, (not funny but ATF didn’t know the answer to this question)? Help!!!

umm... have you not gone to the shop to fill out the 4473 form?

Get in the car, drive over, and plant yourself at the counter.

[donato]

I haven’t got as far as the 4473 form yet; I have my CCW so no worries there.

I was at the gun club Saturday morning when my pistol arrived USPS and I verified the tracking number with the driver. I went to the counter and they said I couldn’t even view the content of the package until they enter it in their books, which my experience has been with other FFLs takes about 5 minutes.

Even though they are open on Sunday too, they told me to check back on Monday so I called about 10 times today and left messages for their FFL guy to call me back but he’s never at his desk, no one can seem to find him, and he didn’t respond to any of my voice mails.

I’m a regular shooter at the club so I don’t want to make a seen unless I have some legal backing; I’m reviewing the FEDERAL FIREARMS REGULATIONS REFERENCE GUIDE right now.

[Nik Habicht]

My advice --- show up in person and be polite but persistent. If they try to tell you it's a problem, see (politely of course) if you can solve their problem. Then, never use them again.....

Keep your eye firmly on the ball though --- which is getting your gun. Losing your temper or making a scene, may delay that --- so don't give in to the temptation.....

[Dave Gundry]

I'll agree - get your butt over there. All the shop has to do is log it in to there books - the only info required is what it is (Brand, Model, Serial #, Caliber, Type (pistol)), and who/where it came from. Not exactly rocket science. If they said they can't even look at the contents, at least in my state, they are full of it. We will always verify the serial number on the paper is what's on the gun, unless it's really high end and the customer does not want us to touch it (in which case we'll verify it when they get to the shop).

Logging them in and transferring the gun to you is a 10 minute procedure, if they have all the info they need. Just head over and be polite but firm. Let them know you are concerned due to the value of the firearm - they should certainly understand.

[donato]

Well I found in the FFL Reference Guide that;

[27 CFR 478.22 and 478.125(h)]

(E5) How much time does a dealer have to record acquisitions and dispositions of firearms in his or her "bound book?"

Generally, licensees have to enter the acquisition or purchase of a firearm by the close of the next business Day (Business day means a 24-hour day (beginning at 12:01 a.m.) on which state offices are open in the state in which the proposed firearm transaction is to take place. means a person licensed by the ATF as a manufacturer, dealer, or importer of firearms.) after the acquisition or purchase and shall record sales or other dispositions within 7 days. However, if commercial records containing the required information are available for inspection and are separate from other commercial documents, dealers have 7 days from the time of receipt to record the receipt in the "bound book." If a disposition is made before the acquisition has been entered in the "bound book," the acquisition entry must be made at the same time as the disposition entry.

My interpretation is that to be in compliance with federal regulation they would have to record it by now. They can’t use the excuse that they’re "too busy" to process my request. Since I already paid-in-full to the originating FFL there should be no sales type documentation so there is no reason that I shouldn’t get my pistol tomorrow.

I don’t want to name names but I hope this post can help someone going to a gun club in “Scottsdale” from making the same mistake I did. I’ll keep you posted on the outcome.

Edited October 7, 2008 by donato

[Hi-Power Jack]

I'll make you feel "better" about this - when I ordered my

TruBor almost a year ago, I was a kid on Christmas

morning - the gun finally came in to my FFL, who kept

the gun until he could get to the police range and fire

a shot thru it to keep the cartridge case as part of a

registration process.

That took about a week:((((

[CDRODA396]

I'll make you feel "better" about this - when I ordered my

TruBor almost a year ago, I was a kid on Christmas

morning - the gun finally came in to my FFL, who kept

the gun until he could get to the police range and fire

a shot thru it to keep the cartridge case as part of a

registration process.

That took about a week:((((

Wow, never heard of this before!

[Seth]

The best advice is already here. Go there and plant yourself in front of the manager/owner with the FFL reg and politely explain that the gun was very expensive and you would appreciate it if they'd take the time to do the transaction NOW. If not, get a specific time during THAT day when they will.

[Rob Boudrie]

If it's the obvious place you're hinting at, it's a fairly large operation. Make sure you talk to someone with command authority - there may be sales incentives in place that make it "costly" for a clerk to spend time handling your transfer when they could be making a new sale or a gun, membership or machine gun rental to some other customer.

I recently had a problem with a Lowes home improvement center where the department manager was acting based on his interests, not that of the corporation (short form: expecting me to pay for his mistake). Once the store manager got involved, the concern shifted from "department manager does not want to look bad" to doing the right thing and protecting the reputation of the store.

You may find that the manager of that business will be very interested in doing the right thing once you get past the underlings. Give him or her a chance, you may be pleasantly surprised. Don't expect to get through to this person on the phone - just show up and politely demand to speak to whomever is in charge - without explaining why to the underlings. I'll bet you walk out with your gun.

Good luck.

ps: Don't do it just before closing time - they will be in a rush, and they won't have to worry about you hanging around the store

[03k64]

I'll make you feel "better" about this - when I ordered my

TruBor almost a year ago, I was a kid on Christmas

morning - the gun finally came in to my FFL, who kept

the gun until he could get to the police range and fire

a shot thru it to keep the cartridge case as part of a

registration process.

That took about a week:((((

Wow, never heard of this before!

Gotta love the stupid CoBIS law in NY.

[warpspeed]

Show up this morning at 10:15am. Tell them you are there to pick up your gun. If they refuse, have the phone # of the local PD & ATF office in hand, not the emergency # but the regular #. Ask them if you should call the local PD or ATF to report your gun stolen. I bet they comply.

[JKSNIPER]

Agree with Warpspeed.

If you paid $4500 for something and the store won't give it to you it seems like a theft to me.

Go there , be polite but firm that you want your firearm WHICH YOU HAVE ALREADY PAID FOR given to you and if "they" do not comply I would make it clear that your next stop will be the local PD to report the weapon as stolen.

JK

[Flexmoney]

I'll bet it is a case of....one guy that does the FFL transfers for the whole store.

[donato]

Well I didn’t call in advance and just went down there. I got more of the same, “mountains of paperwork required for a FFL transfer”, “don’t assume the process starts when we sign for the package” and “don’t call us, we’ll call you” mentality.

I stated that “it’s a federal requirement that an FFL records the transfer of a firearm within 24 hours upon receipt and the pistol was signed for on Saturday”, I didn’t get into any of the “business day” details. Anyway he didn’t have a canned response for that one so he said “I’ll let so-and-so know you are here”. Next thing you know an hour later, I was walking out with my new Wilson Supergrade.

BTW, it's my first Wilson and the Supergrade is Super sweet! Thanks for all the advice.

[Dave Gundry]

Congrats I thought that would have been all it would take - either that or the "it's a $4600 gun - GIMME!" speech

[Paul Burtchell]

That would be THE LAST time I ever did business with that company.

[Seth]

Boy Scout mentality always works.

Glad you're new toy is home!

[Cactustactical]

Well I didn’t call in advance and just went down there. I got more of the same, “mountains of paperwork required for a FFL transfer”, “don’t assume the process starts when we sign for the package” and “don’t call us, we’ll call you” mentality.

I stated that “it’s a federal requirement that an FFL records the transfer of a firearm within 24 hours upon receipt and the pistol was signed for on Saturday”, I didn’t get into any of the “business day” details. Anyway he didn’t have a canned response for that one so he said “I’ll let so-and-so know you are here”. Next thing you know an hour later, I was walking out with my new Wilson Supergrade.

BTW, it's my first Wilson and the Supergrade is Super sweet! Thanks for all the advice.

I'm glad that you got your pistol, well aware of the place you are talking about. But what took an hour once you got to the right person? We get transfers in and out in about 15 minutes and thats if we need to make the the call to the FBI for a background check. People with CCW's usually take about 5 minutes. The process doesn't have to be a pain.

[donato]

Supposedly there was a meeting going on at the time, I had to wait about 50 minutes before they brought the pistol out and started filling out the paperwork, it was only about 10 minutes after that, I’m just ecstatic that it’s over and very happy with my purchase.

[bulm540]

Glad it got resolved. congratulations on teh new pistol.

[Remy]

Ok. So how long does the sending FFL dealer have to send the firearm? I bought a SVI IMM in the forums. The sending FFL received the gun from the seller the 8th it is now the 10th. When I called to see if it had been shipped they said no, that they are busy and that when they do ship it would be regular USPS.

By the way, the seller has been great.

[Rob Boudrie]

Ok. So how long does the sending FFL dealer have to send the firearm?

There is no ATF regulation on this like there is on receiving a gun. Once the sending FFL receives the gun from the seller, it goes into his bound book (or database if there is an ATF variance in effect) and remains there until is is shipped out of the shop. As long as it's in the dealer's books, the ATF doesn't care about an arrangement he has made a third party to have it shipped to another FFL.

Just be sure to get a tracking number when the gun is shipped - it will save you the "is it in yet" phone calls.

[Remy]

Thanks Rob. Good info. I guess you can tell the anticipation is killin’ me.