Multigun Nationals Feedback Thread

[LChico]

Since everybody is pointing fingers... I'm going to do the same and say it's the vendor fault.

I've never seen this much drama after an MG Nationals.

Basically the same USPSA staff and BOD was active at the previous years' matches. And yet you didn't see this much hate after the Reno, Las Vegas and Albany match.

What's the difference if not the vendor?

I mean who designed the stages? ... the vendor or USPSA staff?

Who's abandonment boxes were used? ... the vendor's or USPSA's?

Who required the shooters to tear down? ... the vendor or USPSA staff?

etc...

I know it's hard to put on a match and all. But is this really all 100% USPSA's fault?

I don't see why you would have a moratorium on the MG Nationals when all you would have to do is to get a more able vendor to put on the match.

By "vendor" I assume you mean "venue." I do not think the match director is an employee of the range. I think the range was "rented" for the event. And most previous posters were VERY complimentary of the facility.

I hear most shooters saying USPSA needs to provide some oversight & perhaps additional support of National events. When an Area Director is not the match director of his Area Pistol Championship, he is still involved with the event and provides oversight and support to the match director and administrative staff of the match. They are not disinterested individuals.

This is not about hate - it is about trying to fix or revive a National Event. Declining attendance is not a good sign. Many of the comments are a mixture of compliments and concerns/complaints. Too often, post-match comments on this forum sound like "cheerleading:" the comments are universally flattering. I have been to some terribly organized matches, but you would never know it when the posts appear on this forum. So, they get torn apart by 'word of mouth.' As a match administrator, I want to know what I did right & what went wrong. How will you ever fix things without honest feedback?

Linda Chico (l-2035)

2008 Ft Benning 3 Gun Statistician

Edited October 8, 2008 by LChico

[BOOGIEWOOGIE]

I'm with you Linda, I always welcome constructive criticism about any matches i'm involved with, Its how we learn and make matches better. But i've seen too many good people leave the sport because their volunteer work was so harshly criticized. I was at the match, we're there things i would have done differently, Yes, but bottom line, did i have fun....Hell yeah! And to all involved with the match , my thanks for all you do to provide me a place to play my game....

Oh, interesting word "Volunteer" just happen to have my Dictionary out, I'm from Alabama ,have to keep it handy to spell them big Yankee words sometimes. But it describes it as: a person who offers himself for a service with out obligation to do so. A person who performs a service willingly and without pay.

Got to go, working on this interesting stage design, got the idea at the match, A sliding texas star, hummmmm *WEG*

Don Woosley

Woogie..

DVC

[Religious Shooter]

How will you ever fix things without honest feedback?

If you look at my previous threads and posts I'm all about honest feedback.

While the feedback may be honest, is it accurate?

If the shooter's are complaining about X... who was directly responsible for X?

I can't believe that bad abandonment boxes was the direct responsibility of USPSA staff.

I hear most shooters saying USPSA needs to provide some oversight & perhaps additional support of National events. When an Area Director is not the match director of his Area Pistol Championship, he is still involved with the event and provides oversight and support to the match director and administrative staff of the match. They are not disinterested individuals.

From what I could tell (and I could be totally wrong) there wasn't exactly a lot of oversight from USPSA on the previous matches. And yet they turned out OK. Other than the vendor, how was LA different from any of the previous matches held out West? What exactly was the "support" that USPSA needed to provide?

[outerlimits]

ok-maybe it's time to step forward and help. my area director, chris endersby, is an avid 3gun shooter. i've shot a number or club, area and nationals with him. i know he wants this to work! maybe it makes sense for USPSA to look within and outside to fix the problems. i'll be sending chris my idea, but essentially, it would be to meet with match directors of our "outlaw" matches to get down what works, what doesn't, how to, etc,. there needs to be a bona-fide 3gun or multigun committee in uspsa to fix what's wrong. from there, maybe things can rise to the top and it can be dealt with by the board. i'll offer my time as i'd like the nationals to be THE event.

[tgibson]

Given the article that was in the Front Sight, the other day about "outlaw" matches. I would like to see an apology from the author, after the debacle that is USPSA Multigun Nationals.

Trapr

Well said.

Adios,

TG

[LChico]

Given the article that was in the Front Sight, the other day about "outlaw" matches. I would like to see an apology from the author, after the debacle that is USPSA Multigun Nationals.

Trapr

Well said.

Adios,

TG

Actually, it was an editorial (one man's opinion) and not an article. The President's column in Front Sight has always been a bit of a fluff piece, no matter who holds the office. I don't have to agree with the opinion any more than I have to agree with Religious Shooter.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

2008 Ft Benning 3 Gun Statistician

Edited October 8, 2008 by LChico

[tgibson]

numbers here are indisputable. wasn't able to capture all, but here's a representative view.

i will say alot of complaints for the past two MG nationals were the stages. i didn't shoot those, but albany, vegas & reno in the prior 3 years had great stages.

HECK!!!! If I am reading your worksheet correctly, even the Ironman had more shooters than the Nats for two of the three years!

IMO, if this match isn't going to be run by 3 GUN SHOOTERS, we should consider postponing it until it can be. Trying to run a 3 gun match of this size with people who are not VERY familiar with how they work is sort of like trying to have soccer referee organize and referee a hockey game. Are they somewhat alike? Yes. Is the soccer ref very familiar with the rules of hockey? No.

I am simply using the rules as an example of how the two can be alike, but very different. Please don't misunderstand me. I am not implying that the RO's at the Nats don't understand the rules.

If someone were to approach me requesting my assistance putting one of these matches on, I would be happy to do so. After all this is a volunteer sport, and you get what out of it what you put into it.

I have only been the official MD of one match that I would call a "Major Match" so take all of this for what you will.

One last thing, and I'll go to bed for the night. USPSA 3 gun matches are inherrently slow to reset/tape possibly due to the scoring. I don't know, but when I show up there, I want to be of as much help as I can. It upsets me when I get hollered at by RO's when I try to set a swinger/drop turner/preassure pad, or carry a long gun back to the rack that has already been cleared by the RO as being empty, or some other silly thing. In my experience, 3 gun shooters are VERY willing to work their a$&'es off to get things ready for the next shooter. We know what an empty gun is and we do have common sence. Please let us help and don't holler at us!!!

Please excuse the misspelled words and lack of punctuation. It is late and I am tired.

I am Travis Gibson and I approve of this message.

Adios,

TG

[kurtm]

The "last 3-gun Nationals" weren't OK Relig! I have yet to meet anyone who thought the "debacle in the desert" The Reno Nationals was anything but what the name implies! The Tulsa Nationals were dismal at best. The years in "Vegas " were described as some of the best "CLUB MATCHES" ever put on! Where do you get "OK"??? I think even the USPSA apologists finally saw that the "Emperor had no clothes" this time. Back in 2004 USPSA contacted some of the 3-gun "outlaw match directors for a bit of guidence for the Reno 3-gun, and then did the exact oposite of what was suggested...MAYBE USPSA WILL LISTEN????..... No the President rails against the outlaw matches!!! All of this squabling matters not to me as it will be a very cold day before I decide to shoot the "Nationals" ever again! KurtM

[00bullitt]

Kurt....I kind of got the feeling that there was something in the bigger picture to why you really weren't going this year. You've just been in this game too long and seen it all. I kind of wish I would have followed in your footsteps and saved the some $1200 I spent to attend in these times of economic hardship.

Its bad when I know Area 6 will be twice the match this was. I just hope all this feedback gets to someone that can make a difference and turn this around for the better.

[chendersby]

Kurt

The prez did not rail against outlaw matches in his column. Hell he shoots most of them! What he objected to was why we need yet another scoring system, specifically the Horner System. We have been trying to get our rules in line with all the other big matches and this is another step in the opposite direction. It has been a rough transition for us to get into the multigun game without compromising our principles of speed, accuracy and power. I really have no defense for our nationals since switching to multigun.

I realize the big non uspsa 3gun matches are never going to come onboard with us and that is fine with me. But it would be nice if we could all come to an agreement about equipment rules whatever it may be so shooter don't get suprised when they show up at a match. This is also probably never going to happen.

It is obvious uspsa has a ways to go to turn our 3gun nationals into one of the must do matches worthy of being a Nationals. When we do I hope you will change your mind and come shoot with us.

[kurtm]

Not to change this into something that it is not, but I wonder who his friend was that got hosed by the "Horner system", maybe a top rated shooter who had a bad rifle day???? And the part about "I am tired of showing up to outlaw matches that use OUR rules and then ignore what they want" was a rather blanket statement directed at ALL 3-gun matches, not run by USPSA! When State and AREA match have more shooters than the Nationals, SOMETHING IS WRONG!!! No matter how many guys "excuse" USPSA nationals on this forum it doesn't change the fact that they are not thought of highly by the 3-gun comunity that seems to be voting with their vaction $ NOT TO GO!! HEY GUYS....ITS BROKE!!!

I will tell you why people seem to be "cheer leading" instead of telling it how they saw it, at times people have been banned from matches for speaking out. And on top of that you get all kinds of e-mails telling you that you are bad to run down the match and wrong about your opinion. Then you get the title of a whiner and a "fill in the blank" basher. So up till now that is the thing you got...great match!! Well this time I guess it was REALLY broke and you can't keep a thing like that down!

I would Like to go on record right now with two things! NO I missed the Nationals for the EXACT reasons I stated. My business partner couldn't relieve me in Wyoming because his wife got squashed by a horse and needed a few operations to put her back together. COULDN'T make it because I was stuck at work!

Second, NONE OF MY STATEMENTS IS MENT TO TAKE ANYTHING AWAY FROM THE SELFLESS HARD WORK OF THE R.O.S...THANK YOU TO ALL WHO GIVE THEIR TIME SO WE CAN PLAY!!!

I offered once to help set up and run a Nationals and was told that since I am not a NROI certified anything I wasn't qualified to help run one, or even design stages. Great! I Helped run the last two S.O.F. matches, the first two RM3-Gs and a host of local and L.E. Matches and wasn't qualified to help USPSA. There is a wealth of knowledge out there that USPSA activly IGNORES, EVEN WHEN OFFERED!!! and then wonders why the transition to Multi-gun is so dificult. BTW it isn't just Multi-gun, the Nationals in the past that were 3-gun Tournaments never filled up either. I can remember several in the 90s that had a whoppin 65 shooters total! While ALL the big "outlaw" matches were filled to the brim and a waiting list at 300 shooters, so don't blame this on Multi-Gun.

[bigbrowndog]

Hendersby, how in the world does a shooter get surprised when they show up at a match by the "RULES". They are available for reading months prior to the match being held!!!

As for the OP ED article, yes he did RAIL all the outlaw matches, if that is what was perceived by the reader that is what was done. it is why reading printed word is not a very good way to communicate, because you do not know the speakers tone, attitude, intent, or state of mind.

You say it would be nice if we could all agree to equipment rules, USPSA can't agree with its parent IPSC on equipment rules, for pistol competitions. yet you want agreement from multiple entities, there is really no need for sameness on equipment or rules even USPSA matches are not run exactly the same because its people that interpret the rules and everyone interprets differently.

You make it sound like USPSA is trying to work with the other matches to make a grand and harmonious 3 gun/ multigun world, by saying, I realize the big non uspsa 3gun matches are never going to come onboard with us. When in reality USPSA seems to be doing some back stabbing, on the outlaw matches. The steps that they take to try and run multigun/3 gun seem to be aimless and without focus or honesty.

Linda, I actually was going to use OP ED, but went with article instead.

If anyone wants to see how an organization is supposed to behave, interact and conduct itself during a major shooting competition, go shoot a major IPSC match. Then come back and compare it to how USPSA conducts itself, even US Pistol Nationals doesn't compare to the consideration and respect given to the competitors by the governing organization. Perhaps USPSA should take a long critical look at how they do things, and compare themselves to other more respectable and honorable entities.

Trapr

[ken hebert]

Anyone noticed how there is virtaully NO discussion of this on the USPSA forum..?

[Jack T]

A little constructive criticism on stage building/design and fault lines. I am going to use stage 4, Go Low as an example.

I ran the stage in a pretty good time, great hits and felt good when I finished. Stood up and the RO said he was going to have to penalize me for a foot fault. The penalty was enough to knock me from a 5th overall on the stage to a 7th overall. No big deal, but here is my thought.

How is a shooter to know, while laying in the prone position, if his left foot is barely over the imaginary fault line that runs arround the world when he can neither feel it with the foot or see it in the prone.

Recomendation: Completely enclose the shooting area in these situations. Fault line is pretty cheap.

I know I kinda hammered this USPSA Nationals. I am a lifetime member of USPSA, I have and will continue to do everything I can to promote the sport and USPSA. I am very passionate about 3 Gun shooting and feel a betrayal of trust in the Leadership of USPSA because of the decline in the quality of the Multigun Nationals. Actually I believe the decline started when we went from 3-Gun to Multigun in Reno.

Sorry, but unless you (USPSA) take the Multigun as serious as you do the Handgun Nationals, I will no longer participate in a National Multigun Competion nor nor will I recommend it. I have been to six of them since the very first 3-Gun in Barry, IL. I will be more selective on where I spend my money.

Regards,

Jack T

Edited October 8, 2008 by Jack T

[Fullauto_Shooter]

Anyone noticed how there is virtaully NO discussion of this on the USPSA forum..?

That's because the USPSA forums are a joke and hardly anyone ever ventures there. There are topics there that haven't been visited in months - it's a dead zone. I asked the question months ago if the USPSA Prez ever visted these forums - the response I got was that he was registered here but rarely visited. My humble opinion is that if a leader wants to get a true "feel" for the pulse of USPSA and it's members, this is the only place to do it. You won't learn a damn thing on the USPSA forums, because everyone is here. In my opinion, USPSA should embrace the Eno-verse as their "official" forum but I'm sure that'll never happen either. The perception is that USPSA is more interested in protecting it's "identity" than doing what's best for the bulk of the membership.

[ken hebert]

My comment was meant to be taken tongue-in-cheek, and from the littel bit of browsing I did over there I could see the ammount of activity, or lack there-of.

[Fullauto_Shooter]

My comment was meant to be taken tongue-in-cheek, and from the littel bit of browsing I did over there I could see the ammount of activity, or lack there-of.

Ken,

I knew you weren't serious! I simply took advantage of your comment to express my disbelief that USPSA still administers this so-called "forum" on their site. It seems to be a total waste of band-width; the only useful function it performs is to serve as a "rally point" for the Enos forums if our server goes down again.

[LChico]

Anyone noticed how there is virtaully NO discussion of this on the USPSA forum..?

There is virtually no discussion of anything on the USPSA forum.

Mild thread drift: earlier this year I posted a EZWinScore question on THIS forum. I was reminded by someone that this was not the best place to post that (but it was a weekend, USPSA's main office was closed & I got my answer here). So recently, after the TN Section match, when MD Lynn Jones had a technical question about posting EZWinScore results, he put it on the USPSA Forum. On a weekday. After a few days without reply, he re-posted his question here. We got a quick response.

I have removed the USPSA forums from my "favorites" list. And yes, I am also a life USPSA member and would love to try and help. I devote nearly all of my free time to shooting matches. If some of the USPSA leadership were a bit less defensive when suggestions are offered, they might find a lot of help out here.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

2008 Ft Benning 3 Gun Statistician

Edited October 8, 2008 by LChico

[kellyn]

Keep it on the path, people.

Chris is trying to smooth things out so go easy on him, although I do agree with some of Kurt and Trapr's retorts. I think USPSA needs to get onboard with the outlaw matches as opposed to vis versa. And I completely agree with Chris that rules consistency across the multigun world would be a positive development. I had hoped in the past that USPSA could be at the forefront of this but if USPSA is going to put on Nationals of that quality, it is not going to happen.

I (and most others) did take the editorial as an attack on outlaw multigun in general and R & R specifically. I did not shoot in that match so I don't have firsthand knowledge of many of the critiques although I note Mr. Voigt was not there either. And I was surprised at such a negative view of outlaw 3 gun given that he has been such an active participant and winner of so many various outlaw matches. To have that editorial timed so closely with this year's Nationals was probably a mistake!

While I have to thank the NROI ROs about their hardwork, time and effort, the aformentioned comments about inconsistency are spot on. And while I don't necessarily mind some inconsistency in range commands between ROs, I do mind the attitude that some (certainly not all or even most) NROI ROs have when the shooters questions the commands when they are inconsistent. The attitude is often that the shooter does not know what's going on when it's the ROs giving inconsistent orders. There is also a great deal of inconsistency about weapons handling. On one stage, I get bitched out for laying a rifle (with safety flag) horizontally on a table, on another the RO will not let me place my rifle vertically in the stand meaning that I have to hold on to it vertically the entire time as I cannot lay it down horizontally. Thank God, Daniel was there with his cart! Unlike pistol matches, 3 gun requires more weapons handling when not actually on deck for the stage. I think this makes pistol oriented ROs very nervous which is fine but the attitude is defintely different than at your typical outlaw 3 gun. Kurt's example is depressing. The idea that USPSA would ignore the help of an incredibly experienced 3 gun shooter and match director since he is not a member of NROI boggles the mind.

[Larry White]

If USPSA can absorb Steel Challenge intact, rules, scoreing and all they can adapt multigun to be a lot more in line with the outlaw matches, rules, scoring and all. They would have to admit that they are not the know all be all org. of multgun and try to attract folks from the outlaw crowd who know how to put on and run a large multi gun match. I think too many folks in the USPSA org are in the resist change at all cost mode. Unfortunately I think this sounds like 2004 all over again.-----------Larry

[Jack T]

Chris,

Really appreciate your concern with shooter input with regards to USPSA and Multigun Nationals. It's pretty damn refreshing!

I shoot both Tac Optics and Open.

Get rid of the restrictions on Open Division Shotguns. As long as the gun is safe, who cares if someone has a 20 round drum on their shotgun or one of the new RCI Mag Tubes by Mark Roth on an 1100 or a Benelli. Open is Open let them run!! I know some people might not think it is practical, but I remember back in the 80's a lot of people did not think electronic sights on a weapon system were practical either.

All it does is limit the development of the equipment. Open Division needs to be a test bed for equipment, like I stated, as long as it is safe.

I look at these 10 round tubes for the shotgun and they are laughable. I quit shooting Open Division because of the ridiculous length of the reload tube you would need to be competetive now. But, Open is Open so let em run. I went back to Open Division because of the Saiga 12 shotgun. I see it as a more viable weapons platform than haveing 10 round tubes hanging off my butt.

Practical is like tactics under fire; If you are still alive, then it worked.

Thanks,

Jack T.

Edited October 8, 2008 by Jack T

[Jaxshooter]

My suggestion is to handle the Multi Gun Nationals like they did the Single Stack Nationals. Have it in conjunction with the Ft Benning Match and let Linda and her crew run it. Then it would be first class overnight with no USPSA Staff needed/wanted.

[outerlimits]

now that's an idea...they just did this with the steel challenge too.

[00bullitt]

My suggestion is to handle the Multi Gun Nationals like they did the Single Stack Nationals. Have it in conjunction with the Ft Benning Match and let Linda and her crew run it. Then it would be first class overnight with no USPSA Staff needed/wanted.

Now I kinda like that idea

Linda Chico for USPSA Multigun Coordinator

Somehow I think she could make things happen and change for the better.

[LChico]

Thanks for the vote of confidence, guys, but you need to put down the koolaid

Unlike Single Stack division & it's mirroring of Single Stack Society rules, there are some pretty big differences between USPSA and IMGA variant multigun matches. Hence this thread . . .

Trying to convert ANY existing large multi-gun match into the USPSA Multi-Gun Nationals is probably a no-starter. Those matches are already VERY successful (in terms of shooter interest, supportive staff, and generous sponsors), and there would need to be an 'up side' for them to become the USPSA National match for multi-gun.

On another thread, Denise (Rocky Mtn 3 Gun & Johnson 3 Gun) mentioned that she felt USPSA rules limited creativity in stage design.

I know at Ft Benning, chrono would be the biggest obstacle. We have enough trouble trying to get all the shooters through the stages without trying to chrono 2 firearms for each shooter. And to have a national event, where chrono has such an impact on the scores, & not sending everyone to chrono, well, that won't work either.

Many major Multi-gun matches have a long tradition and affiliation with dedicated sponsors. Not sure they would want to jeopardize those relationships to host the USPSA Nationals.

But again, thanks for the kind words.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

2008 Ft Benning 3 Gun Statistician

Edited October 8, 2008 by LChico