Big Match prizes

[Charles Bond]

First off, my experience talking to sponsors has been the opposite of yours. I contacted about 350 potential sponsors for the Area 1 matches this year. How many did you speak to that said they wanted their product randomlly given away to shooters? I had about 2.

Could be a regional thing but I doubt that is the total difference. That you had contact with 350 potential sponsors is a feather in your cap and is way more sponsor contact than the USPSA nationals and the SC match put together.

As far as the RO table going randomly. How else would you do it? Best RO gets the best prize? The table is there to reward their hard work, not to reward their performance in the match.

I notice how you used the word "reward". Obviously we can not reward them all equally since we do not have rewards (I will use your word) of equal value. So we do it random but if it is a reward that is really unfair since the RO running the long stage might be entitled to more of a reward than the RO running the side match. Since we can not reward their work fairly by that method, and if one believes that rewards should be based on performance, would rewarding the range staff not be more fair if we let them go to the RO prize table in order of finish?

For me, I would disagree with this since it would tend to keep our most experienced range staff away since many of them are older and many do not even actively shoot matches anymore. But if what the sponsors donate has to be considered as a reward, should not rewards be given in a fair method?

Now change the word "reward" to prizes. If you eat at McDonalds a lot, you get more tokens to win $100,000.00 which is a prize. We give more tickets at our match to ROs who work more days and this includes set up days. It is a prize donated by the sponsors which is open to everyone and while you can improve your chances of winning a prize by working more, it is a prize rather than a reward.

I don't agree with your discounting of rewards as trophies only. Rewards have traditionally been considered something more than a block of wood. Hey, if you arrest Billy the Kid we'll give you a trophy. I don't think so. Prize tables should reward something other than random luck of the draw.

I was not discounting rewards as trophies only. If you want a cash payback, that is a reward. If you want to buy a gun for each division winner then that is a reward. But the bottom line is that all rewards, even trophies, cost the match revenue paid from the entries. The more spent on rewards, the higher the fee the shooter will pay.

Would there be a market for a match with a $10,000 cash prize? Of course. There would be some shooters (20?) pony up the $500 or higher entry fee. But our experience is that there is a much larger market for matches with entry fees of $100 or less and consequently, the guy or gal who wins that match is not going to get as large of a reward.

Stated correctly, there should not be any reward tables since we should reward performance equally and we can not do that where one winner gets a gun and another winner gets a knife. Prizes are prizes and rewards are rewards. What is donated to the match is a prize. What the match buys is a reward. Do some matches confuse the two? Yes. Does it make sense? I don't think so.

[Charles Bond]

I think it was more like "SHOOT Billy the Kid and we will give you a block of wood" KurtM

But Kurt since you are from out west, you no doubt realize that Billy the Kid was a rebel who was what he was a result of the oppressive and wealthy land barons and railroads. in other words, he as an Obama brought down by a McCain. Let's home history repeats.

[kurtm]

Okay, I'll play! I grew up in New Mexico in Billy's old stomping grounds...back when any self respecting cowboy ( I grew up chasing #10 line bread Herford cattle) had at least a 30-30 in a scabberd if not a pistol of some sort and an opinion a day long! Billy was considered a snot nosed little brat! Nothing more! The Mexicans seemed to think well of him, But I never met any reall man of the west that thought any different. Garrett was considered a drunken womanizer ( I always wondered where those women were as I NEVER saw them anywhere I was) who was dry gulched about 5 years after he got rid of Billy, and not morned in the least. Both got the "reward" they deserved. The "prize" was how many "dudes" and Easterners spend money on crap that "once belonged to Billy, Or spend money drinking where Billy drank in the state of New Mexico (now you all know why I detest the word "dude"). KurtM

[Mike P]

To distinguish between "prizes" and "rewards" when they are all on the same table is lame. They are all rewards when distributed by order of finish. An individual may choose a coffee cup over a camelback, or a case of ammo over a gun. Whatever. Value is relative and can be determined by the person making the choice. So one may choose their reward/prize from what is on the table based upon their performance.

Mike

[mpeltier]

This prizes vs rewards thing to me is turning into a game of symantics, lets just call it booty. When their is booty to be had on the table I would like to be as close to the first guy to choose from it as I can. If some competitor who is not all that experianced/serious about his game finishes waaaaaaay down the list walkes the table and his booty is a nice upper, and then they call my name third to last and I walk away with another ball cap (this has actually happened to me) It can have a souring effect---Don't get me wrong here I shoot for the shooting, a nice booty table is just icing on the cake, forgive me if I want to eat it too. R.O's should be given more for their efforts, that is another thing entirely, and should be seperate from their turn at the booty (I.E. waived entry fee's, accomodations, recognition trophy etc.)

Edited October 24, 2008 by mpeltier

[Charles Bond]

Okay, I'll play! I grew up in New Mexico in Billy's old stomping grounds...back when any self respecting cowboy ( I grew up chasing #10 line bread Herford cattle) had at least a 30-30 in a scabberd if not a pistol of some sort and an opinion a day long! Billy was considered a snot nosed little brat! Nothing more! The Mexicans seemed to think well of him, But I never met any reall man of the west that thought any different. Garrett was considered a drunken womanizer ( I always wondered where those women were as I NEVER saw them anywhere I was) who was dry gulched about 5 years after he got rid of Billy, and not morned in the least. Both got the "reward" they deserved. The "prize" was how many "dudes" and Easterners spend money on crap that "once belonged to Billy, Or spend money drinking where Billy drank in the state of New Mexico (now you all know why I detest the word "dude"). KurtM

Kurt you are no doubt correct but you ignore the revisionist history of late including, although I find it increditible, the John Wayne movie that protrayed him as misunderstood and a "victim". However one views Billy, I am still voting with the rancheers and railroad barons for John McCain.

[Charles Bond]

This prizes vs rewards thing to me is turning into a game of symantics, lets just call it booty. When their is booty to be had on the table I would like to be as close to the first guy to choose from it as I can. If some competitor who is not all that experianced/serious about his game finishes waaaaaaay down the list walkes the table and his booty is a nice upper, and then they call my name third to last and I walk away with another ball cap (this has actually happened to me) It can have a souring effect---Don't get me wrong here I shoot for the shooting, a nice booty table is just icing on the cake, forgive me if I want to eat it too. R.O's should be given more for their efforts, that is another thing entirely, and should be seperate from their turn at the booty (I.E. waived entry fee's, accomodations, recognition trophy etc.)

Having just been to Disney World and having ridden the Pirates of the Caribean with the kids, is "booty" not what is stolen or what a single man attempts to get when he goes to a bar by himself?

My prize experience has been the somewhat the same as your own. When I have been to matches where prizes were used as rewards, I usually do better than random draw but that really does not color my acknowledgement that this is likely not the fair way to do it. Of course the classic complaint is that you have 3 divisions and you have 100 people in tactical optics, 35 in limited, 40 in open, and 15 in heavy metal. When the match puts out the prizes to be used as rewards, they put a gun of equal value on each table as the best prize.

Using prizes as rewards is hands down one of the most difficult matters for any MD to administer and of course since you likely receive some prizes at the last minute including after the match starts, the headache is only compounded. Shooters complain about tables set out like I set out above. If there is not a gun on each table, you get many grumps. Once upon a time in America, most of the better prizes were auctioned off at the match to raise funds to defray match expenses at many matches but that is way outside the collective memory of most shooters.

The bottom line is that there is not an easy answer here. Personally, my preference would be an ultra low match fee, let everyone come and shoot and go home. Forget the trophy. Forget the rewards. Auction the prizes and use the money to help a charity or promote the juniors. Now were I to do a match like that, I would either be branded Robin Hood or Billy the Kid.

[benelli2]

IMHO-Symantics and political correctness are killing the country, me and this thread. If someone is going to do the randomn thing why don't they call them door prizes and give them out at the start of the match. No matter, good stages and good people can be found everywhere to shoot with, I have been to many local and state matches that dwarf area and national matches on fun, challange and organization, and I have been to many larger events that are totally awesome, and been to some I didn't think so much off. It all really comes down to the people, not the location, cost, or timing, the Match staff. I look at who is running the show, they are the ones that make it happen, the MD that has the vision and drive and his Ro's that are there to make sure everyone has a fun safe time, not the ones there to see how close you are to the 180. They will decide based on their thoughts and perspective how they will take care of the RO's, shooters and distribute the prizes, it will never be done the same at every event. What you typically will see is what happens to participation over time, filled matches or ones with slots available will indicate who is doing what right. My thoughts are that a major wildcard 3 gun event could be held at the same time as the USPSA nationals and I would place my bet on the wildcard to fill the match if run by the right people. I have played everyrole in matchs, shooter, RO, Rangematser, and and yep running matches has its challenges distributing prizes, most I ran had a prize for everyone and distributed from the top down, my perspective they earned them, gave away top prizes of Benny Hill 6", Briley customized Browning Gold and numerous Remington guns, only had medium participation and we made nothing but everyone was pretty happy with the match, still have folks asking when is the next one.

I also choose to shoot the IPSC overseas matches at large expense with basically no prizes over there, so it aint all about the prize but it does have something to do with fairness and "shooter value"

I think the best indicator of what works the best is the major mathes that fill up and that indicates order of finish, not random is the most popular

Give prizes anyway you want, just decide and post it when you post the match so people can choose

And never argue with lawyers, you don't have enough time

Rant off, load and make ready!

[ima45dv8]

IMHO-Symantics and political correctness are killing the country, me and this thread.

Jeff, what's about to kill this thread is all the Obama/McCain comments.

[mpeltier]

This prizes vs rewards thing to me is turning into a game of symantics, lets just call it booty. When their is booty to be had on the table I would like to be as close to the first guy to choose from it as I can. If some competitor who is not all that experianced/serious about his game finishes waaaaaaay down the list walkes the table and his booty is a nice upper, and then they call my name third to last and I walk away with another ball cap (this has actually happened to me) It can have a souring effect---Don't get me wrong here I shoot for the shooting, a nice booty table is just icing on the cake, forgive me if I want to eat it too. R.O's should be given more for their efforts, that is another thing entirely, and should be seperate from their turn at the booty (I.E. waived entry fee's, accomodations, recognition trophy etc.)

Having just been to Disney World and having ridden the Pirates of the Caribean with the kids, is "booty" not what is stolen

Random draw awarding sorta fits that description to me. If I got called first and selected the high zoot custom whiz bang tacticool AR3000 and the match winner was called 50th and got a real classy camelback, I would certainly feel like I stole something. I do not envy all the issues A MD faces, it reminds me of the umpires at my sons Baseball games, they get all the complaints and too few praises for all their hard work, to all you MD's out there, thanks for what you do.

Nice post Jeff, you have a better way with words than I do.

Edited October 24, 2008 by mpeltier

[Chuck Anderson]

The two times I shot the Area 6 3-gun, it was by order of finsh so I guess I am confused by your post. I am not however confused about Kelly's post KurtM

Charles was referring to the Area 6 Pistol Match, not the Area 6 3-Gun match. I know it's hard to keep track since this the 3 Gun forum and he keeps bringing up pistol matches.

Is there a basis for doing it one way for 3 gun and another way for multigun and yet another for pistol?

Nope, but this is the 3 Gun forum, you're clearly confusing that KirkM guy and we need to help him out. He's the greatest iron sight rifle shooter in the world...ever.

[Chuck Anderson]

First off, my experience talking to sponsors has been the opposite of yours. I contacted about 350 potential sponsors for the Area 1 matches this year. How many did you speak to that said they wanted their product randomlly given away to shooters? I had about 2.

Could be a regional thing but I doubt that is the total difference. That you had contact with 350 potential sponsors is a feather in your cap and is way more sponsor contact than the USPSA nationals and the SC match put together.

Yep, you might want to think about that as a possible reason why the prize table at the Nationals matches has sucked so bad for the last several years and from the sound of it the Steel Challenge dropped this year as well. Why does USPSA not have the ability to contact 350 potential sponsors when they have full time employees working? How is it that a simple Area match with a pretty low entry fee, $95.00, can manage trophies and $125,000.00 in prizes and yet USPSA doesn't seem to bother with some of the really good potential sponsors out there? I also doubt it is regional since I contacted sponsors nationwide. My guess is it probably is based on how the question is phrased. The huge majority of sponsors I spoke to really didn't care what order we gave the prizes/rewards out in, they just wanted the advertising value. When we went random in 2006 I actually lost several sponsors that didn't want their products given away randomly.

As far as the RO's, you brought up that the RO table was done randomly. Basically, I was agreeing with you. Since the RO's don't get graded or evaluated on the work and effort they put in, there is no other way to award the RO table except by random order. However, I seem to remember there being a way to evaluate the performance of competitors at a match. A way of evaluating the points they shot divided by some other number, say the time they took to acquire those points. And all those shooters could be listed by those numbers in an order of finish. Oh wait we already have that. I guess if we just give stuff away it really doesn't matter then does it.

I do like Jeff's idea...to a degree. Give the prizes away before the end of the match if you're going to just give them away. Why make everyone stand around to get their random bag of stuff. The downside of this is if you do it at registration, not all the shooters get to see how generous the sponsors were, since the prize table will disappear as registration goes on.

[00bullitt]

I'll quickly put my thoughts on the whole thing and what comes to my mind.

I love three gun and the people I shoot with and the new friends I meet everytime. I do it because I love it and I do choose to travel and spend lots of my money to attend certain matches based on the prize table and how it is distributed. I may be what is called a prize table whore. Currently I am semi new to the game and have yet to have all the experiences that Benelli2 has. Maybe when I get to his level things will change. Maybe for better and maybe for worse.

I guess I will see. But for now this is how I look at matches.

I would not travel across the country(and spend a small fortune in travel)for a random draw match. Especially given some of these high entry fees.

What I would do is travel a reasonable distance for a well run match with a low entry fee and a random draw prize selection. David Tapp's tactical rifle championship at Steel City Range in Birmingham comes to mind. For $50 David ran one hell of a tactical rifle match with some excellent and fun stages and awarded the prizes at the beginning of the match by draw of a ticket that was in your shooters bag. Then it was off to shoot and have a great day of shooting some excellently designed stages with your good friends. At the end of the match the top finishers in each division were awarded nice plaques.

I can save alot of money going to a high entry fee random draw match by running up the road from my house and purchasing a lottery ticket. There has to be a balance.

Now I do believe that RO drawings should be random draw as I see no other way to reward that. RO's usually are shooting the match so that is an extra chance at receiving a decent prize for their work efforts.

Basically if you are gonna have a random draw match it should be met with a low entry fee and advertised up front when the match is advertised.

If effort to reward performance by order of finsih is gonna take place then the entry fee can be higher(and most of the time is) and it will attract the type of shooters that search for those types of matches. I am pretty sure RM3G,SSM,FB3G,and DPMS would not be as successful if they were total random draw.

[Charles Bond]

David Tapp indeed runs a heck of a great rifle match in Birmingham and I get to shoot there far too often.

Based on my knowledge of the other matches you reference, those matches would fill up if they were only rock throwing contests due to the huge fun factor which they bring year after year.

[00bullitt]

Based on my knowledge of the other matches you reference, those matches would fill up if they were only rock throwing contests due to the huge fun factor which they bring year after year.

Whatever

I wouldn't be goin

[TonyH]

[quote name='Charles Bond' date='Oct 24 2008,

Based on my knowledge of the other matches you reference, those matches would fill up if they were only rock throwing contests due to the huge fun factor which they bring year after year.

I highly doubt it!!!!!

[ccur]

To fill up a rock throwing match, the entry fee better be REALLY LOW!!

Cheryl

[Charles Bond]

To fill up a rock throwing match, the entry fee better be REALLY LOW!!

Cheryl

No question. My thought which I hope is not lost on everyone on this forum is that a big reason I come to these matches is to rub elbows with old friends and I would not desire to give that up even if we could not shoot together in the future.

[JKSNIPER]

To fill up a rock throwing match, the entry fee better be REALLY LOW!!

Cheryl

No question. My thought which I hope is not lost on everyone on this forum is that a big reason I come to these matches is to rub elbows with old friends and I would not desire to give that up even if we could not shoot together in the future.

+1 !

Bill Conforte Head coach of Iona college in a talk he gave years ago: "If you're going to college to play hockey then you're going to college for the wrong reason"

If you're shooting in matches only to win monetary rewards commensurate with the amount of practice/effort/time/money you spent to get the skill you now have?

Then you're shooting for the wrong reason.

Go get another job.

You'll be "rewarded" more.

JK

[uscbigdawg]

I'll throw in my $0.02.

Basically, the only "fair" way to award prizes in my opinion is overall finish. I was a 'D' class shooter and when I wasn't as good, I got the bottle of Sight Black (not literally) off of the prize table. Guess what, I learned that if I wanted to win one of the guns or frames, I had better get better.

Personally, I refer to Mike Dalton's comments regarding classifications in USPSA. They are great at the club level for shooter development, but at big or major matches, overall finish is all that matters. Catering to the lowest common denominator does nothing but suppress achievement because by it's nature you are rewarding complacency and mediocrity.

On random draw prizes, like others have said, hand them out at check-in so that at the end of the match, shooters can go home if they choose to.

The only "fair" way you'll ever have a prize table, with classifications, is to have a seperate prize table, by division and by class (and let's not forget categories because we have to make EVERYONE happy).

And...if it's a good match, shooters will come if there's NO prizes given. As a matter of fact, two of the most fun matches I've ever shot, the old Paper & Iron and the 2004 GA State, had small prize tables, and I didn't get anything "cool". But I had fun and every year try and find if there's another P&I match.

Rich

[mpeltier]

If you're shooting in matches only to win monetary rewards commensurate with the amount of practice/effort/time/money you spent to get the skill you now have?

I don't think anyone who posted in this thread feels that way. In fact I have yet to meet anybody in this sport that feels that way. But prize tables are there, and this thread is about opinions on how we as shooters feel is the fairest way to distribute the prizes/awards.

Edited October 27, 2008 by mpeltier

[00bullitt]

If you're shooting in matches only to win monetary rewards commensurate with the amount of practice/effort/time/money you spent to get the skill you now have?

I don't just shoot in matches based on monetary reimbursement. But I do choose which matches to spend lots of travel dollars on based on the prize table. I'll shoot every local match for the love of the sport and to be around my friends. I wouldn't spend a weeks salary to go across the US to shoot a big "Outlaw" multigun match for fun and no chance of getting anything in return. Its nice to know some of you are in that position but I'm not.

Alot of the countries best 3 gunners don't shoot alot of USPSA multigun or pistol because to them its just shootin' for glory and they've had enough of it.

I won't mention any names. But I've heard several of the top dawgs say that. They choose to go where the money is.

It makes it easier on the homefront for me to justify going accross the country to shoot a match when prizes can be brought home in return for a well deserved finish. 3 gun and multigun are not cheap unless of course you have those big lawyer salaries supporting your addiction.