Palm Scoring - Nationals

[Flexmoney]

Sounds like all the real issues are coming from lack of experience from the RO's...and the shooters.

I'll bet that is better by the end of the week...for most cases.

Two issues that are coming up:

- Having to wait until the end to score the No Penalty Mike's (disappearing targets).

- The NPM not being on the paper trail (that is a Match Director/Stats issue that should be corrected in the future).

[Buzzdraw]

One very positive aspect of Palm Pilot scoring is that there is no possibility for errors due to deciphering handwriting.

Today (day 3 of the match) the RO's were doing much better on most bays, with others just getting a little better in skilled manipulation. Those bays that were running very smoothly had a system worked out that worked well on that bay.

[Flexmoney]

One very positive aspect of Palm Pilot scoring is that there is no possibility for errors due to deciphering handwriting.

That is a good point, for sure.

400 shooters x 19 stages = 7,600 scores sheets

So, that would be ~ 15,000 score sheets for both matches.

[Interceptor]

I really appreciated that the scores were updated very quickly on both the public access laptops provided at the range and then on the USPSA website because of the nature of the palm scoring.

It was however disconcerting that the NPM's were not listed on the palm or on the receipt you would receive at the end of the stage. I think this needs to be remedied.

If we are going to release a tech-type scoring solution, it needs to be implemented using RO's that don't still have rotary telephones.

Edited September 10, 2008 by Interceptor

[Rob Boudrie]

It was however disconcerting that the NPM's were not listed on the palm or on the receipt you would receive at the end of the stage. I think this needs to be remedied.

Agreed. I will be taking this up with Peter Cunningham once I send him a report on how things went at the matches.

[John2A]

I would like to add my .02. I was not at the Nationals but I can tell you from past expeirences that the palm system once it is working is better than anything out there. i used it about 4 years ago at the Wachovia Championship here in Charlotte, NC. The first year there was a lot of what goes there and how does that work. But the next year we (scorers) had a 1 day class with the palm folks and everything was great. Once you use it for more than a day or so any one even some one with a rotary phone can operate it. My hope is that they spend some more time with this system and give the RO's some more indepth training for the next go around.

Trust me guys if the system did not work well the PGA would not allow it during their tournaments.

[AlamoShooter]

Rain & mud OH MY

Edited September 12, 2008 by AlamoShooter

[driver8M3]

Having to score the disappearing targets last is also a huge waste of time and has resulted in a copule reshoots on our squad.

the way to address this is to have a NPM option for each target on a stage [A - B - C - D - M - NPM]...that way targets can be scored in the most efficient path around the bay.

i didnt really mind the new system. it's a bit different, but not necessarily worse. i dont think we had any problems with it (which is pretty impressive IMO).

i'd like to see what a brand new uspsa shooter would think (someone with no experience with either the palm scoring, or our paper score sheets). would that new shooter see the palm system and say "this sucks...anyone ever think of printing up something like a paper scoresheet, and writing the scores down by hand, and then later have someone enter all those numbers into a computer?"

[hf219]

Palm Pilot scoring was a very poor choice for the Nats this year. Stage RO's were overwhelmed with the additional work and the required experience it burdened them with. Id say about maybe 4 stages had RO's that could change duties to any of the required ones. Most stages seemed like the same people were tasking themselves with the same job throughout the match. Of course if you were running a small stage with little movement no big deal. If you had a rather large stage or two stages on the same bay, well I applaud the outstanding work the RO's did. An RO dinner is not nearly enough for what work most of the RO's were expected to do and should be compensated accordingly. Many RO's had never operated this system and seemed a little confused the first day of shooting. By the second day they had worked out the kinks, I know a few shooters who had wrong scores entered and were not corrected. Some stages would show you the Palm Pilot when finished scoring, some would only show you the hand written paper trail, some did both. I believe that the quoted time to run each shooter on stage 11 was 6 minutes. So the estimated time of each squad was 45 minutes, with 11 shooters thats 66 minutes. Of course there were other stages that had back ups, REF was partly to blame and only added to the length of time required to get a squad through. The first day they had two stages with around a squad each that had to wait for the next day to start that scheduled stage. As far as simplicity, well, I didnt see that we waited any less longer this year for the final results than we did last year. In fact I think we actually waited less time in 07', even with only shooting a half day last year. The data entry has to be done of course, it should have been done by someone other than the people who are required to have an RO certification to run the COF. RO's are required to score the stage, its just how much more complicated do we really need to make it. Maybe NROI should add a Palm Scoring certification. Thanks goes out to all of the staff that held their chin up high, kept their cool and made the best of what was presented. Adapt, Overcome & Improvise should be the NROI motto from now on. H!

[Shootingirons45]

Palm Pilot scoring was a very poor choice for the Nats this year. Stage RO's were overwhelmed with the additional work and the required experience it burdened them with. Id say about maybe 4 stages had RO's that could change duties to any of the required ones. Most stages seemed like the same people were tasking themselves with the same job throughout the match. Of course if you were running a small stage with little movement no big deal. If you had a rather large stage or two stages on the same bay, well I applaud the outstanding work the RO's did. An RO dinner is not nearly enough for what work most of the RO's were expected to do and should be compensated accordingly. Many RO's had never operated this system and seemed a little confused the first day of shooting. By the second day they had worked out the kinks, I know a few shooters who had wrong scores entered and were not corrected. Some stages would show you the Palm Pilot when finished scoring, some would only show you the hand written paper trail, some did both. I believe that the quoted time to run each shooter on stage 11 was 6 minutes. So the estimated time of each squad was 45 minutes, with 11 shooters thats 66 minutes. Of course there were other stages that had back ups, REF was partly to blame and only added to the length of time required to get a squad through. The first day they had two stages with around a squad each that had to wait for the next day to start that scheduled stage. As far as simplicity, well, I didnt see that we waited any less longer this year for the final results than we did last year. In fact I think we actually waited less time in 07', even with only shooting a half day last year. The data entry has to be done of course, it should have been done by someone other than the people who are required to have an RO certification to run the COF. RO's are required to score the stage, its just how much more complicated do we really need to make it. Maybe NROI should add a Palm Scoring certification. Thanks goes out to all of the staff that held their chin up high, kept their cool and made the best of what was presented. Adapt, Overcome & Improvise should be the NROI motto from now on. H!

The only issue we had was with a person that was no longer shooting with us. We had to make sure that the range staff was aware beforehand or the next person would be scored as the one that wasn't with us. Other than this I think the whole system was great. The only issue we had was stage 11. I had to reshoot it 3 times for REF. 2 other shooters had to reshoot it twice. The stage was backed up on Sunday and we had 2 squads ahead of us. Once this hurdle was overcame we waited but little. My hats off to the hard working RO's, stats folks and staff. This was my 1st Nationals since 97 and I was very impressed with how much better things are now. Also, the USSA is one, kickass facility. Thanks for putting on a great Nationals.

[BritinUSA]

Stage 11 was held up today as well. When we got there, the previous squad was just getting their briefing.

[AlamoShooter]

Stage 11 was held up today as well. When we got there, the previous squad was just getting their briefing.

It was after 4 pm when we were abble to start on stage 15 ..7:40 was when the last shooter ,,,Me ... got off the range,

I don't have a good first imprestion of palm scoreing

[lbritt]

A few of my observations of the new Palm scoring:

As mentioned earlier, if you loose a member of your squad, confusion is sure to set in. Sometimes the RO working the palm did not get the message about an absent shooter. He then inadvertly enters the scores of one shooter under another shooters name. They seemed to always catch the mistake but that required about a 10 minute shut down to fix the mistake. RO's were re-writting scores on scratch paper, deleting others, then re-entering scores. I think they got it all fixed ok, just added more time to the stage.

I saw several RO's complaining about not being able to clearly see the Palm screen (bright and sunny weather). Many would have to go under the tent when transferring scores to paper. I wondered how well they could see the screen while entering those scores behind the CRO out in the sunlight.

I also saw confusion when the Palm RO had to jump forward a shooter (ie: re-shoots). No big deal. Just more time added.

Not complaints here, just observations. My hat's off to all the RO's for battling through a new method and making the match a success.

Now for solutions. I'm in no way an expert at scoring but how would this work?

Shooter completes the stage. RO's score and record time & hits on paper score sheet (normal score sheet w/ carbon). Shooter signs score sheet and receives a copy. Orginal score sheet is then handed over to data entry person under the tent in a controlled enviroment to transfer scores from paper to Palm. Previous shooter has the option to verify electronic score after it's entered. All this can be done while the next shooter is shooting the stage. Repeat.

You're not changing much, just reversing the process. Score the stage on paper first. Any mistakes are easily corrected before going into the Palm. If you are entering the initial score into the Palm, the next shooter can not begin until the Palm is clear and the previous scores have been accurately transferred to paper.

The staff member working the Palm does'nt even have to be a certified RO. Just someone who has knowledge of the score sheets, these electronics devices, and the ability to transfer data.

[Fireant]

Stage 11 was held up today as well. When we got there, the previous squad was just getting their briefing.

It was after 4 pm when we were abble to start on stage 15 ..7:40 was when the last shooter ,,,Me ... got off the range,

I don't have a good first imprestion of palm scoreing

I don't think all that back up was due to the palm scoring. I was on that squad that finished at 4:00. Did you guys shoot all the stages you were supposed to today? If so great you were only in the muck 3 hours and 40 minutes. We were in it for 8 hours. I'm not impressed with Tulsa yet. It reminds of the VA/MD match in 2007

[BritinUSA]

Squad 6 was shooting from 8am until 3:30pm when we finished stage 12.

Long day.

[blownhemi]

Now for solutions. I'm in no way an expert at scoring but how would this work?

Shooter completes the stage. RO's score and record time & hits on paper score sheet (normal score sheet w/ carbon). Shooter signs score sheet and receives a copy. Orginal score sheet is then handed over to data entry person under the tent in a controlled enviroment to transfer scores from paper to Palm. Previous shooter has the option to verify electronic score after it's entered. All this can be done while the next shooter is shooting the stage. Repeat.

You're not changing much, just reversing the process. Score the stage on paper first. Any mistakes are easily corrected before going into the Palm. If you are entering the initial score into the Palm, the next shooter can not begin until the Palm is clear and the previous scores have been accurately transferred to paper.

The staff member working the Palm does'nt even have to be a certified RO. Just someone who has knowledge of the score sheets, these electronics devices, and the ability to transfer data.

Sorry but in my opinion the last thing you need is a score person getting haragued by a shooter by the RO is running someone else through the stage. This is why most scoring offices are off limits to shooters (in my experience anyway) unless there is a legitimate concern over a scoring error.

I think Palm certification as part of the NROI is a great idea though. That way the RO's are already familiar with the program before they start.

Scoring shooters under the wrong name isn't the fault of the palm system but the score person instead. I've seen it plenty of time with paper too and it usually requires the person involved to go off and grab a new score sheet. It's just a matter of the scorer making sure he's got the right person in the start box and not just relying on the squad order. No different or worse than paper scoring.

I hear these so called complaints but I've yet to hear anything that just doesn't come back to the scorer making a simple mistake. About the only legitimate concern seems to be the NPM situation which I'm sure Peter will fix up.

[lbritt]

OK, so have the data entry person away from the shooters so they can't monitor or check the electronic entries. They have a signed written copy anyway. At least the Palm entries can go at there own pace without affecting the flow of the stage if the stage is first scored on paper. I saw shooters in my squad get left in the pre- Make Ready stage for more than 10 minutes after the CRO realized the Palm RO was not ready. All of the delays I saw seemed to be with the operation of the Palms, not the Palm itself. I'm sure that will all be worked out with more experience. Again, these are not complaints, just observations so the fine folks making the decisions can make informed decisions.

[Jim Norman]

A tear-off scoresheet that is weather proof for the RO doing the scoring, that goes to the shooter AFTER the Palm Scorer enters those scores into the Palm. This takes the delays of waiting for the PalmRO to be ready immediately. OR add a second Palm to each stage. Shoot one, pass it off to the record keeper and score the next shooter on the second palm.

I am hopeful that a better system that couples modern electronics to the current scoresheet system directly can be developed. THere are new 'SmartPens' available that will,with the use of special paper record the pen strokes to a computer. Use the score sheet we have and couple it to oneof these devices.

No,I cannot do it, I can barely spell all the words involved without spell checker, but there are man people in USPSA and on this forum that I am sure can do it in their sleep.

But as for Palm being a problem at Tulsa? Not that I have seen. The problems have been almost 100% related to the somewhat damp weather and that would slow up any match. Movers with bags, taping under bags, soft ground under poppers, and all the rest are the same things we always have to deal with. The RO staff has been courteous and efficient. Shooters for the most part are helping out by getting their collective butts out and tapping and setting steel. Occasionally a few seem to have to be reminded that they need to do some work and with the weather the recovery time for the previous shooter is a little longer as one generally needs to wash the mud out of his mags.

Jim

[Thomas Moore]

I say drop the Palm scoring system, (palms won't be around too much longer) and go with a scantron type system. This way it still allows for carbonless copies for the shooters and it also allows for fast scoring on a scantron machine.

[BDH]

Just some general comments from the staff side of things.... if my memory serves me correctly, I've worked every Nationals from 2001 forward (with the exception of last years Tulsa match when I was in France working the European Handgun Championship), so I have a little bit of experience on both paper in the US, and overseas, and after this week, on the Palm.

First, I don't remember anyone looking over my shoulder while I was writing scores down on a scoresheet, ever! I am usually walking while writing, and if someone is following me, I'd guess that I am a little tough to see around...

Second, my take is the Palm system is much more for the competitors than for the staff. What it gives you is more updates as to how competitors are doing, and gives them more often. It also allows the final match results to post much earlier than if all the scoresheets had to be taken to stats and entered/verified before posting (they told us that at one of the A7 matches, the finals posted 8 minutes after the last round fired)...

Third, this system puts a little more work on the staff than just dealing with paper, but one thing that it absolutely does is prevent scoresheets from going in with the incorrect amount of hits on them. It does not prevent the 'paper copies' of coming up short however which is a different issue (and some times this works in the competitors favor as the paper scoresheet is what counts, so if I forget to transfer a NS from the Palm to your paper copy, the paper copy rules and you do not get the NS even though recorded in the Palm)...

Finally, as with anything new, it will take a little time to adjust. Lots of suggestions went in, and this will be a work in process. As with many things, there are pros and cons, but I think the benefits of close to real time stats, and quick final posting would outweigh the cons of using the system. Also, any of us in the technology space can dream up lots of solutions to many of these problems (how about the 'scoring device containing a printer, so we can immediately print you an exact copy of your run right on the stage, kind of the like the rental car companies when they print you a receipt?), but there is a cost involved not only on the Nationals level, but down through the Area, Sectional and club matches as well...

[BritinUSA]

I thought that the Palms worked great. I loved the fact that after finishing on Saturday morning I sat in the HQ and could check my scores on my iPod Touch within an hour of finishing.

Pretty slick stuff.

[Rob Boudrie]

We were actually using two doodads for the first time at the Nationals - in addition to the Palm scoring, we set up a local server for use as a results station and had a leaderboard projected in the USSA building; 4 PCs for checking results in the building, two additional systems in the vendor tent and open WiFi at both locations. Other than the overalls posted at the awards ceremony, there were no "paper postings" of match scores (and no paper postings of stage finishes). USSA has their own computer guru (James Broom) so I arrived to a fully functional and ready for action results network using a server I pre-shipped - no last minute configuring of wireless nodes, running cables, etc.

Another first was use of the web to support the one hour posting period. We posted results to the local results station and www.uspsa.org, at which point we posted the on hour deadline as well as the cell # of the stats chief (Joy Hyden). Competitors could check their results at the hotel (30 minutes from the range) and could phone in complaints within the hour. We also used the "announcements" feature of the result station to post listings of the various cell phones we found throughout the match. (note: When you find a cell phone, call a phone with caller ID to get the number and sometimes the name of the owner of the lost cell phone).

I'll post the code for the results station to uspsa.org so anyone who feels comfortable setting up a linux box can create a similar results station for other big matches. I'll wait until USSA sends my server back so I can include the Apache and Bind configuration files as part of the tarball.

[BritinUSA]

Rob, thanks for all the work you did on this. I thought it worked great. My only suggestion for a possible improvement would be to allow access to the BrianEnos forum from the webservers.

[AlamoShooter]

Thank You ! To every one that help with the match.

Thank you to every shooter that stayed, to make it a very memorable match.

I am amazed at the skill and endurance of the entire match staff to remain so nice and up beat every moment that I was in contact with them.

The Ro's played the largest part in making my trip a happy one.

Thanks YOU!

Thanks Joy

Jamie Foote

[Rob Boudrie]

My only suggestion for a possible improvement would be to allow access to the BrianEnos forum from the webservers.

What is your estimate as to the number of additional results stations we will need if we take an action that will increase the average time one is in use by a competitor from 5 minutes to 60?