rhino Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 I realize that in action shooting sports athletic skills will always play a factor. I have no problem with that. But, it seems like some matches consistently present stages where it's more about the athletic elements, especially going prone and getting back up, kneeling, etc. than it is about shooting. When I started shooting IDPA, I thought I would do better at it than USPSA because I assumed (mistakenly) that it would be more about basic shooting scenarios and less about running speed. Well, I was wrong! I do a lot worse at IDPA because almost all of the stages (at least locally) involve non-shooting elements that are difficult (and sometimes impossible) for me to do. Even without practicing, my shooting skills are toward the top of the pack, yet my scores are always near the bottom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stratochief Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 Kneeling, going prone, squatting and movement are all basic elements of practical pistol shooting. Good course design incorportates alot of these movements to compliment the shooting. Bad course design focuses the course of fire on them instead of the shooting. That's why I left Cowboy Action Shooting because it became to gimicky for me. It is critical to practice all the different elements when praticing because more than not, were doing some other sort of movement along with shooting at any match. I dry fire and practice reloading from squatting, moving and kneeling, it becomes second nature sooner than you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 Rhino, sorry about hijacking the thread. I'll delete my posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasag93 Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 I know the feeling. I shoot on occasion at a local club(USPSA) that resembles a track meet more that a pistol match. The director likes running them that way. I am a match director at a local club and I try to keep it mixed up. Several of my local regulars are should I say "verteran" shooters. They prefer standing and shooting. I like a little run and gun so I mix it up. People who complain that they can't be competitve with all the running should be reminded that they are technically competing against their same class(classification and age) and not everyone at the match. You can't please everyone all the time. TXAG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted July 14, 2003 Author Share Posted July 14, 2003 Someone in your local IDPA club needs to get out the little green book and read pages 19-20. First, it is illegal to squat in IDPA, you must kneel. I never said otherwise, so you must be referring to another poster's message. The local match directors know the rules really well and do not typically violate them. I would greatly prefer it if squatting were allowed, because I can squat a lot easier than I can kneel. Total movement is not usually that far and as long as we can stay on our feet, I don't mind it. It's the getting down and up crap I don't like. I especially don't like it when you either start prone (or worse . . . supine) and have to get up or have to go prone then get back up to do more. It bothers me a lot less when it's at the end and you don't have to do anything else. It's funny . . . lots of people want reloads off of the clock, but no one ever suggest putting the movement off of the clock! PLEASE NOTE . . . I assumed this was a venting forum and not one to ask for advice . . . feel free to post what you want, but I'm only venting. If I had a problem I could not deal with, I'd quit going to the club. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted July 14, 2003 Author Share Posted July 14, 2003 And here's a weird thing . . . I do the worst at field courses in USPSA matches, but I enjoy shooting them the most! Running and gunning is fun, even if your run is a slow shuffle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davecutts Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 Well yeah since this is in the hate forum I'll let you alone ... if it's shooting it's fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 I prefer stages that do incorporate more athletic abilities because I know I can beat most of the couch potatoes out there on those stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 I should say I too don't like those gym-oriented stages, that (BTW) should be avoided according to: 1.1.2 Quality – The value of IPSC shooting competition is determined by the quality of the challenge presented in the course design. Courses of fire shall be designed primarily to test a competitor’s IPSC shooting skills, and not their physical strength or gymnastic abilities. During the last match I attended, I shot one of these stages: starting from box A you were presented with a mini popper and a target @ 30+ metres, then you had to grab a suitcase and run for at least 20 metres, drop suitcase on table and then engage two steels and two targets @ 10-12 metres from a low port. The first two targets were only visible for the first couple of steps from the box, so no run'n'gun was even conceivable on them: you plainly had to shoot from the starting box, then run, then stop and shoot again. IMO, this is a real demonstration of poor stage design: if a couple of shots had been placed during the run, it would have constituted a shooting challenge, because you had the option of shooting on the move while holding the suitcase. Instead, what was set up was a mere test of running speed, because you could compensate poor shooting skills (make up shots on far targets) with dash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 I think it is besides the point to attack IPSC course design that incorporates physical challenges. Outside of the US, these are much more common than here, *practical shooting* must incoprorate non-shooting challenges (physical and otherwise) to be true to its roots. IPSC even has a rule to deal with competitors with disabilities that would permit waiving stage requirements. Rule 10.1.4.5 says "If a competitor is unable to fully execute any part of a course of fire as a result of incapacity or previous injury, the competitor may request a penalty in lieu of stage requirement...". If you feel you cannot go prone or kneeling, take advantage of this and keep joining the fun...--Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davecutts Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 I'm with Detlef, shut up and shoot. If you want to stand around and shoot there is always the steel challenge, which almost everyone loves or where at the exclusive steel shooters say we ISPC guys just go fast and they shoot a accurate game even though IPSC shooters win it every year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 Deleted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davecutts Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 davecutts:As for the attitude of "Shut up and shoot". I can agree, but only to a point. When course designers try to level the playing field by incorporating gymnastics, confusing arrays, etc., then what you have is a circus not a shooting match. I have found that most of the ridiculous crap that I see at IPSC matches is thrown in by people who can't shoot for beans and they are simply trying to take the emphasis away from shooting skill. I think that sucks. I agree totaly, and maybe I was a bit to harsh with that comment I appologize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Run n Gun Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 Look, I’m a old BFG (Big Fat Guy), almost 400 pounds with REALLY bad knees and arthritis in both shoulders. When ever I see that I have to kneel my knees starts hurting in advance. This last match was 180 rounds and six stages. The FIRST stage I shot there was both a low port AND a ramp that had to be ran up! I knew I was going to be in a lot of pain all the rest of the day, and I was right (still am). Why, oh why, can’t they just do the things that I’m good at like shooting strong hand/ weak hand or have true “freestyle” stages with no shooting boxes? Why do they insist on making me run and jump and kneel and do all those things that only embarrass and humiliate me? Because that’s the way the game is played. Nobody is FORCING me to do this, I CHOOSE TO DO THIS! If I didn’t like the game I’d go find another game. So if you see a big blonde old guy lumbering around like a wounded water buffalo; A: Stay out of my way. Getting run over by someone like me could be fatal. B: Help me pick up my brass, THAT’S hard. Ron, while I agree with much of what you say, if forced, I’d have to vote with the “shut up and shoot” crowd. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted July 15, 2003 Author Share Posted July 15, 2003 I see that a few of us are still Unclear on the Concept of the topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 15, 2003 Share Posted July 15, 2003 I see that a few of us are still Unclear on the Concept of the topic. administrator hat on This is Rhino's rant in the hate forum. Ya'll hush up and let him vent... (If you want to discuss this issue, then start another thread in a different forum heading.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted July 15, 2003 Author Share Posted July 15, 2003 Thanks Flex . . . For the record, I don't mind if they want to give advice and discuss . . . I just wanted them to know what my purpose here was. I didn't want anyone to think I was dismissing their advice or experience because I didn't like what I was hearing or that I disagreed . . . I'm dimissing it because I'm whining so loud I can't hear anyone else talk! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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