Full length dust cover in ESP

[Steve J]

Back to the original question. The rule book says Carbon or Stainless steel. That means if it is not carbon or stainless steel then you are good to go. If all full length dust covers were illegal it would have just said full length dust covers. Since they were specific about material then that's what they have to abide by.

It would seem so. Again, it goes back to the rule book not being comprehensive enough. It appears to address only factory guns and modifications to factory guns. It does not address custom builds. Nor does it address replacing the factory frame with one of lighter metal.

[tgibson]

Back to the original question. The rule book says Carbon or Stainless steel. That means if it is not carbon or stainless steel then you are good to go. If all full length dust covers were illegal it would have just said full length dust covers. Since they were specific about material then that's what they have to abide by.

That is sort of what I was thinking.

Adios,

TG

[Jim Watson]

What's wrong with a little equipment race? A lot of the stuff we are shooting now would have been considered wildly radical 30 years ago. Let CDP be CUSTOM and ESP have real ENHANCEMENT. As said it should fit The Box, and I am not too sure about weight limits. Just no excess holes or muzzle appliances on the barrel and no glass in the sights.

On the other hand, I would not be averse to tightening the limits on SSP. IPSC has a trigger pull minimum for Production, and I don't think it would be a bad idea to cut the hair trigger Glocks out of IDPA SSP likewise.

[Aristotle]

What's wrong with a little equipment race? A lot of the stuff we are shooting now would have been considered wildly radical 30 years ago. Let CDP be CUSTOM and ESP have real ENHANCEMENT. As said it should fit The Box, and I am not too sure about weight limits. Just no excess holes or muzzle appliances on the barrel and no glass in the sights.

On the other hand, I would not be averse to tightening the limits on SSP. IPSC has a trigger pull minimum for Production, and I don't think it would be a bad idea to cut the hair trigger Glocks out of IDPA SSP likewise.

[kgunz11]

IMHO, STOCK SERVICE PISTOL should be just that. Right out of the box completely stock. Sights, springs, trigger, everything should remain completely stock as it is an issued weapon by any local, state, or federal department. It's a STOCK SERVICE PISTOL after all right?

Keep It Simple Stupid.

[tgibson]

IMHO, STOCK SERVICE PISTOL should be just that. Right out of the box completely stock. Sights, springs, trigger, everything should remain completely stock as it is an issued weapon by any local, state, or federal department. It's a STOCK SERVICE PISTOL after all right?

Keep It Simple Stupid.

+100!!

Adios,

TG

[RobMoore]

In a perfect world, yes, but too hard to regulate. At least if internals are free to modify for everyone, all SOs and MDs have to worry about is the external stuff.

[kgunz11]

Is there no honor system anymore?

What kind of character would modify a gun that he knows is going to bust him at the chrono table when the trigger is pulled or the slide racked?

[solaritx]

I also agree with kgunz11.....KISS principle at it's best.

Stock is Stock

Enhanced and Custom MEAN that work has been done on the gun to make it what the owner wants. Now KISS this in IDPA. 1) Pick a weight that is max 2) put a size that is max. (both are already done per the IDPA rule book) Now, let the shooter decide what he/she wants as long as it meets weight and size. Done. No exclusions, no anything else.

Besides, far to many individuals believe that it is the weapon that makes them better. As said many times before, it's the indian not the bow.

[RobMoore]

Is there no honor system anymore?

What kind of character would modify a gun that he knows is going to bust him at the chrono table when the trigger is pulled or the slide racked?

Refering to the The Northern Ca Golden Gate shoot ?

[kgunz11]

Nope... just a rhetorical question.

[jam-man]

I also agree with kgunz11.....KISS principle at it's best.

Stock is Stock

Enhanced and Custom MEAN that work has been done on the gun to make it what the owner wants. Now KISS this in IDPA. 1) Pick a weight that is max 2) put a size that is max. (both are already done per the IDPA rule book) Now, let the shooter decide what he/she wants as long as it meets weight and size. Done. No exclusions, no anything else.

Besides, far to many individuals believe that it is the weapon that makes them better. As said many times before, it's the indian not the bow.

My only complaint is IDPA choices weight and size that are set just so 1911’s can compete and then shuts the door on other platforms. For example CZ SP 01 only weight 2 oz more than most 1911 9mm, but the rule was set to allow 1911's and then it makes it difficult for CZ platform guns to compete. The sport is suppose to be shoot with what you carry, now when you carry a fully loaded gun what difference does 2 or 3 oz's make? Heck, switching to 147 grain bullets from 115 would make a few oz's difference.

I don't have a problem with weight limits, but they need to let other platforms compete against 1911's. The have already shut door on certain Sigs that performed well, it seems now the rules are being used to exculde other competive guns.

[kgunz11]

What gun can you not compete with in IDPA?

Yeah, the 1911 is the most popular handgun in American history... accept that, it's not going to change.

How is it made difficult for a CZ75 SP01 handgun to compete???

What Sig guns are prohibited from competing in IDPA?

[Steve J]

I also agree with kgunz11.....KISS principle at it's best.

Stock is Stock

Enhanced and Custom MEAN that work has been done on the gun to make it what the owner wants. Now KISS this in IDPA. 1) Pick a weight that is max 2) put a size that is max. (both are already done per the IDPA rule book) Now, let the shooter decide what he/she wants as long as it meets weight and size. Done. No exclusions, no anything else.

Besides, far to many individuals believe that it is the weapon that makes them better. As said many times before, it's the indian not the bow.

My only complaint is IDPA choices weight and size that are set just so 1911’s can compete and then shuts the door on other platforms. For example CZ SP 01 only weight 2 oz more than most 1911 9mm, but the rule was set to allow 1911's and then it makes it difficult for CZ platform guns to compete. The sport is suppose to be shoot with what you carry, now when you carry a fully loaded gun what difference does 2 or 3 oz's make? Heck, switching to 147 grain bullets from 115 would make a few oz's difference.

I don't have a problem with weight limits, but they need to let other platforms compete against 1911's. UMM, it almost like someone on the IDPA board has a big interest in 1911's???? The have already shut door on certain Sigs that performed well, it seems now the rules are being used to exculde other competive guns.

Please see the second quote in post #4 for your answer. Rules are rules. Let's just follow them.

[boo radley]

My only complaint is IDPA choices weight and size that are set just so 1911’s can compete and then shuts the door on other platforms....

Hmm...I'm going to gently disagree. It seems to me IDPA has (unwittingly) arranged things in complete favor of the Glock to be the predominate platform of choice.

If members had a say, I'd like to see --

SSP: As is. (Ideally, completely stock, but it's too late to shut the door on the thousands who've already modified their gear). Allow the XD in this Division.

CDP: 1911 platform, only. The G21 and other widebody .45's provide a clear advantage, IMO. Maybe increase the weight limit an ounce or two.

ESP: Weight and box limits only. No optics or comp's. Bull barrel? Bushing barrel? Lightened slide? Who cares, provided it fits in the box, and makes weight. Oh, and remove the 10-round restriction for this Division.

SSR/ESR: Don't care.

[M4Super90]

What gun can you not compete with in IDPA?

How is it made difficult for a CZ75 SP01 handgun to compete???

What Sig guns are prohibited from competing in IDPA?

SPO1 unmodified is overweight for SSP.

P226ST was made overweight for SSP by the last rulebook revision. Some P220ST, depending on grip & mag choice are, over weight for CDP. Most of the X5, Elites, Match, etc. with stainless frames and that will fit in the box are over weight, but close enough that if the last rules revision did not add the "with mag" they would make it.

[Jim Watson]

How is it made difficult for a CZ75 SP01 handgun to compete???

What Sig guns are prohibited from competing in IDPA?

CZ75SP01 is difficult to qualify for IDPA because it is heavy for SSP and has a "full length dust cover" that is verboten in ESP. So what you have to do is put on light grips and pick the lightest magazines so it will make weight for SSP. Then you can shoot it in ESP because the dust cover clause does not apply if the gun is ok in SSP. Tortured logic.

The Sig P220 Super Match that you would think could give the 1911s a run for their money is too long for The Box, as is the X-Five Tactical that would otherwise be a real ESP. A lot of the steel framed Sig-Sauers are too heavy for their natural Division.

Then there was the previous generation of "Sport" models with double actions and compensators. Never could figure out a sport they were competitive at. I think Sig-Sauer is not trying real hard for the US competitive market.

[kgunz11]

And it is fair to blame the 1911 for the weight issue/length of other guns?

Is the SPO1 a hi cap dbl stack grip?

Do the polymer framed guns not carry as much blame for the current weight restrictions?

[jam-man]

And it is fair to blame the 1911 for the weight issue/length of other guns?

Is the SPO1 a hi cap dbl stack grip?

Do the polymer framed guns not carry as much blame for the current weight restrictions?

I am not trying to 1911 bash, I have zero problems and they are great weapons. The only point that I was trying to make is that it seems that all weight and size requirements are set around 1911 platforms. I can see people screaming if the weight restrictions for SSP were 24 oz, which is about what a Glock would weigh with a magazine.

As stated in the above post a lot of really great guns that make excellent carry weapons were eliminated in due to the last rule book change. I never want to see IDPA become an equipment race, however I do carry my SP 01 at times and I don't see any reason it should be excluded. Keep IDPA to its roots, shoot guns that you would carry.

For what it is worth the so called full length dust cover on the SP 01 is really a beefed up light rail. If CZ would have stopped the light rail 1/4 of inch from the muzzle then it would have legal. I know IDPA has to draw a line some where, but draw the line using some common sense.

Examine the size of the IDPA box and compare it to a 1911 with a mag with a base plate and see how close it is, then look at the weight requirements and see how close the 1911's come in. The only conclusion I can come to is the weight and size requirements were drawn up using 1911's. This in sad because it does exclude some other nice carry weapons.

No matter what I will keep shooting IDPA and support it, I just hope no more guns are excluded due to silly rule changes.

[kgunz11]

An all steel 1911 with mag and 8 rounds of .45 230gr ball ammo ain't no slouch on the scales.

I agree though about the IDPA rules, it seems they are so anti equipment race they hurt their participation.

Does a Baretta 92 make weight and size in accordance with the box? If it does then no one has room to complain, that's a heavy pig too and it isn't short on anything including bbl and slide.

[Duane Thomas]

The only point that I was trying to make is that it seems that all weight and size requirements are set around 1911 platforms.

Actually, back when IDPA started up, I interviewed Bill Wilson for an article, and he stated the size requirements for IDPA were built around the Beretta 92 as max.

[jam-man]

The only point that I was trying to make is that it seems that all weight and size requirements are set around 1911 platforms.

Actually, back when IDPA started up, I interviewed Bill Wilson for an article, and he stated the size requirements for IDPA were built around the Beretta 92 as max.

That would make sense, being that the M9 replaced the 1911 and is close in size and weight.

Does anyone know the logic behind the rule change concerning a empty mag in the gun? Maybe I would feel better about it if I understood the logic behind it. It juse seems a convient way to elimnate a lot of ESP guns that would go head to head with 9mm 1911's.

Let me say this again, I support IDPA 100% and Mr. Wilson as done a heck of lot to support IDPA. So please don't anyone take that I am tring to bash IDPA or Mr. Wilson. It just seems the empty mag in the gun rule, elimanted some great weapons for no good reason.

[Ed Deegan]

Travis...

I doubt you remember me, but we shot together a couple of years ago with your lim rig at

that "idpa" match in VA, while you were doing that job at Fort Lee (?).

As I recall, other than "giving you a bit of the business" no one cared about dust covers or the rest.

Come on back, ya'll are welcome anytime.

Regards,

Ed

[Mayonaise]

Heck, switching to 147 grain bullets from 115 would make a few oz's difference.

Can you explain this to me? Guess my math is weak.

[Steve J]

Does anyone know the logic behind the rule change concerning a empty mag in the gun? Maybe I would feel better about it if I understood the logic behind it. It juse seems a convient way to elimnate a lot of ESP guns that would go head to head with 9mm 1911's.

It's for the same reason that weighted grips are illegal. Extra heavy magazine components, extra weight can be a competitive advantage. The only problem is that the rules aren't specific enough. They don't specify that each and every magazine used in the match must comply.

ETA: By the way, there are plenty of 1911's with otherwise legal modifications that don't make weight due to the manufacturer deviating from mil spec in frame and slide design. It doesn't matter which game you play, you can whine about the rules til you're blue in the face to no avail. It's much simpler to just live with them and make the best of them.

Edited August 15, 2008 by Steve J