Swede20 Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 I got bumped into open because I had 11 rounds in the 1st magazine and when they told me to load and make ready I inserted the mag into the gun racked the slide back making it 10 rds in the mag and one in the chamber. The RO said that because "I started" with "11 rounds" I was D'qd from the match because I was bumped into open class. MInd you I never started shooting with more than 10+1, it was because I put a mag in the gun to start that had 11 rds in it and racked the slide. I did it so I didnt have to take another mag out to load 1 rnd in the chamber and place another one with 10 rds in it. So if anyone is shooting limited 10 or production, remember this so they never have to learn the hard way like I did. Hard way to learn this at the nationals- broke my heart! Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stratochief Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Are you serious? They DQ'd you from the match because you started with 11 in the mag? Boy if that aint being anal about rules, I don't know what is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Dude it's the Nat's they better be anal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stratochief Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Dude I guess I'm missing something here. With 11 in the mag and you rack the slide, aren't you still starting with 10+1? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Unfortunately, the rules state "no more than 10 rounds IN THE MAG". That has been taken literally. I'm so sorry Dave - were ya doing well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Yes, however, John Amidon has decreed 10 rounds only means 10 round only, ever, not just after the standby command. I guess if they catch you loading 11 rounds as you sit in your chair in the shade waiting for your turn to shoot, you're in Open. I guess if you're in the vendor tent and you want the base pad/spring/follower vendor to prove you can fit 20 rounds in your Limited mag (that you are using for L10) with his new gizmo, you're in Open when an official sees you put in #11. Swede20, how did they know you had 11 in the mag? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swede20 Posted July 4, 2003 Author Share Posted July 4, 2003 The RO saw at that I didnt use 2 mags to load my gun at the beginning of the stage when he told me to load and make ready. All my glock mags are hi-cap so I've always just loaded my 1st mag with 11 so I could just rack the slide back and be 10+1. After I got done shooting the RO asked me if I loaded up with 10 rnds(9+1) since I didnt use 2 mags to load and make ready. I told him that I loaded the 1st mag with 11 so I could be 10+1 after I racked the slide back. He then told me that I was DQ'd from the match. Hopefully everyone will read this and not learn the hard way like I did! Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 That sucks. I'd take my chances with an arbitration committee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bullseyekp Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Swede, that is slightly ridiculous. If you shoot the stage with more than 11 rounds I can see the conflict, but not for what you did. I saw someone get a procedural for loading and shooting 12 rounds at the IDPA nationals one year. I am assuming that they did this to cover the RO's/SO's a$$e$ if they failed to watch the round count as you are shooting. There's always next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 That suck even more. Looks like he would have to do some round counting or something before giving a DQ. Is it too late to late to go to the arbitration committee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcount Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Swede, When I read this interpretation in the NROI column a couple years ago (I think) I knew something like this was going to happen to someone sooner or later. When the Production Division equipment requirements were written an exception allowing 11 rounds in the magazine for LAMR purposes could have been written in. But it was not. Whether this was intentional or an oversight, we will never know. I would suspect an oversight. Why would NROI want you to handle the gun/magazines twice on LAMR when it could be accomplished with one action? But that's just my opinion and no one has ever solicited my advice on how rules should be written. At least you can still shoot the rest of the match. How are your chances of winning Open Division? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Nesbitt Posted July 5, 2003 Share Posted July 5, 2003 There is another thread somewhere about why we are losing shooters. It's because of stupid stuff like this. Bill Nesbitt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted July 5, 2003 Share Posted July 5, 2003 They warned everyone at the Area 8 FG match in advance. John Amidon made this decision. The rule isn't clear and he decide that this is the way it was going to be. Hopefully it will be fixed with the new geewhiz rules coming out because as it stands it is BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muser Posted July 5, 2003 Share Posted July 5, 2003 I was D'qd from the match because I was bumped into open class. Dave I take it that you were only bumped into Open Division, not DQed. Being moved to Open Division would be the correct, and only, call to make. Even that call for what you did is pretty cheezy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liota Posted July 5, 2003 Share Posted July 5, 2003 Vince, You want to weigh in on this one? The rules are being re-written as we speak, we might as well clear this one up right now. It will make things easier later. DQ'ing or even bumping someone for taking a time-saving measure that doesn't give the competitor ANY advantage for shooting is silly and small. What should have happened was to clear the firearm and holster. The RO maintain the round from the chamber. Have the competitor show (i.e., take out and count) all rounds from each magazine to show the 10 rounds per magazine limit was being followed. If the competitor was found in violation, bumping him to Limited Division is warranted. Since this is the FGN, Limited and Open Divisions should not be players, as a result, a DQ for not following the rules would be appropriate. Thought about letting him shoot the match for no score, but then there would be no penalty for not following rules, since most of us come for the shooting and not for the prize table, if there is one. This is just my opinion, it has no rulebook quotes to back it up. Liota Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted July 5, 2003 Share Posted July 5, 2003 I think the real question that needs to be asked is; what competitive advantage did the shooter gain by using a magazine with 11 rounds to load and make ready, thus making his pistol, when ready, loaded with 10 rounds in the magazine (as per the rules) and 1 round in the chamber. What gain was there? I don't see one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dowter Posted July 5, 2003 Share Posted July 5, 2003 My 2 cents. The ruling on 11rounds on the LAMR is exremely petty. I think that Amidon really dropped the ball on this ruling. He could have just as easily said that the 10 round rule in the magazine only applies to when the buzzer goes off and no one would have batted an eye. This ruling(and the poor phrasing of the rules that brought about this ruling) just causes too many silly problems and does not do anything good for the sport. At worst - the shooter after an 11rnd LAMR should have been told to unload and show clear and then made to LAMR with magazines with only 10 rounds. (The absurdity of this last part pretty much shows how absurd this rule is.) I hope that if people finally get fead up and IPSC dies out, the bureaucrats and lawyers will at least be able to take pride in how slavishly they followed the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted July 5, 2003 Share Posted July 5, 2003 Ten in the mag is ten in the mag. A lot of the guys push this pretty hard at our local level. They really get offended if they grab the wrong mag, shoot 12 after the reload and get called on it. The whines of grabbing the wrong mag can be heard all over the range. Half the shooters top off with a second mag anyway (Open and Limited), so what’s the problem for the L-10 and Prod folks? It appears to just be laziness in most cases. Several folks starting shucking rounds from all their mags (not our squad, Flex), after becoming aware that RO’s were counting shots at this year’s NATS, just as they did last year. I was on a squad with gentlemen that got promoted to open. He took it very well, and stayed with us the rest of the match. Hope I can be that sportsmanlike some day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dowter Posted July 5, 2003 Share Posted July 5, 2003 They really get offended if they grab the wrong mag, shoot 12 after the reload and get called on it. The whines of grabbing the wrong mag can be heard all over the range. That's a totally different situation from an 11 rnd LAMR. Nobody is arguing that L10 and Production shooters should get some wiggle room in the number of rounds in the magazine after the buzzer. There is a competitive advantage for having 11 rnds after the buzzer, not before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 The RO thought Trout shot 12? Just look at the timer and see where the reload was!!! That is B.S.!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiserb Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 Unfortunately, the rules state "no more than 10 rounds IN THE MAG". That has been taken literally. The only exception is the Revolver rule where you can load 6, 7, or 8, but you may only shoot 6 before reloading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucky Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 Sounds like somebody screwed up and got bumped to open. Had it happen to a couple guys last year at the Area 8 FG. We were very assertive in driving this into the competitors in the walk through and explaining the penalty for doing so.... 'cause we didn't want it to happen. AND it did NOT happen. There were two guys bumped to Open division during the Area 8 FG Championship. One had fired more than 11 shots during the course of fire and another cocked the hammer on the draw on the standards stage. NOTE: We also mentioned this in the shooters briefing as a don't do. These are very controversial rules, but they are the rules nonetheless. If they are a problem, we need to change the rules, not accept, then ignore them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 The 11 rounds in the mag thing was not an oversight. Production was started with the intent of attracting new shooters--those buying DA guns at the gun store, which, due to Federal law, cannot be sold with magazines having a capacity greater than 10. The sentiment at the time was that we didn't want to force people who owned DA guns to go out and buy more 10 round mags to compete with, so the rule was written to say "10 rounds loaded in the magazine." While I understand the logic behind 11 in a mag to start with, it's not the same as a competitor who can only load 10, nor does it take an appreciable amount of time to load one round, then insert a 10 round mag, and it is against the rules. Besides, how is the RO to know whether all the competitor's mags are loaded with 11 or more? They don't pull magazines to check how many--this is something that's usually caught during the COF, and yes, they were counting rounds. It's also not something to arbitrate, since it's breaking a division rule, like putting a scope on a limited gun. Out of the 3 (?) competitors who got moved to Open, (NOT DQ'D), one wanted to arbitrate, but the MD refused to accept it. Why add a $100 fine to a division bump? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 Troy, Its not that there isn't a rule, it is that the rule, as stated, is vague. The question isn't whether the competitor, at the buzzer, started with 1 in the gun and more than 10 rounds in the mag, he didn't. What competitive advantage did that shooter gain by doing that? Based on what I've read here, not one. Now, if someone, by accident or intentionally started, at the buzzer, with more than 11 rounds in the gun (1 + the magazine), thats easy and clearly a violation of the rules as printed. It can be verified through review of the shots fired on the timer. I want to know how the RO here figured out he had 10 rounds in the mag after LAMR. In my opinion, since the rule, as printed, is not specific in this regard, the benifit of the doubt goes to the competitor until such a time as the competitor proves by shots fired and dispensed mags that she/he has more than 11 rounds to dispose of before a reload must be done. (sorry for the lengthy sentence, probably run on) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 Jon, Bucky is talking about why the were bumped at the Area 8 FG not FGN. Bucky, I said somebody screwed up and it happened at the A8 FG. I didn't say why they were bumped just that they were. I know's yous guys from Jursee has trouble wit da english sos I'll splain it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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