Facing Uprange

[steel1212]

8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange (emphasis added), with arms hanging naturally by the sides. A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. “Arms hanging naturally by sides” is illustrated in Appendix E3.

So the competitor isn't suppose to be doing the IPSC monkey?

[boz1911]

We could apply the logic test a number of ways.

- If we aren't facing "uprange" then we must be facing "downrange". (if we used the logic of opposites)

- If we do a search in the rulebook for "downrange", what we come up with is references that correspond with not breaking the 180.

- Logic might tell us that if they wanted "downrange" to be so narrowly defined (as to be directly at the back berm) , then they would have defined it as such when they defined "uprange".

Regardless, it is always best to clearly spell out what the start position is in the WSB. "Facing Uprange" has been narrowly defined with the latest rulebook, but we still need to be clear on our start positions.

Thank you Flex, my freakin point exactly......The course illustrated shows my intended course of travel which was exactly 3 steps to the left corner at roughly 45 degrees. Just FYI, I did win the stage anyway.

[Punkin Chunker]

The new rule book defines Facing Uprange in the glossary.

Facing Uprange . . . . . . . .Face and feet pointing straight uprange with shoulders

parallel to the 90-degree median intercept of the backstop.

I thought this definition was trying to be over-technical when the new rulebook came out -- "90 degree median intercept of the backstop?"

The 90 degree intercept of the median of the backstop? Or the intercept of the 90 degree backstop median?

Why not just say:

Nose and toes pointing away from backstop, and heels, hips, shoulders and ears parallel to the backstop.

Boom. Done. Close the book.

Edited July 30, 2008 by Punkin Chunker

[wgnoyes]

Thank you Flex, my freakin point exactly......The course illustrated shows my intended course of travel which was exactly 3 steps to the left corner at roughly 45 degrees. Just FYI, I did win the stage anyway.

And given the same situation as RO, I'll do the same thing again, because nothing I've heard dissuades me from believing that facing downrange is treated any differently from facing uprange, except the competitor is pointed in the opposite direction. Because if we have to debate what "facing" means and how its definition varies based on the required direction, we might as well reopen the discussion on what "is" means.

[sfinney]

Flex has it right here, becasue the term "Uprange" is so narrowly defined, and "downrange" is not ..... so by logic, "downrange" is not the opposite of "uprange" or they should have had to spell that definition out just as narrowly. As far as it is expressly written in the current rules, downrange is just not breaking the 180. To intrepret it any other way is to be making up addtional rules to make it what we want the rules to imply .

On a "downrange" start, if you want the competitor to be squared up excatly parallel to the backstop (or anything else), better state it in your stage description.

Edited July 30, 2008 by sfinney

[Jim Norman]

And we wonder why people cal USPSA/IPSC shooters a bunch of freaking gamers and don't come back to shoot a second time.

Facing down range. IF I were to tell you to fire a shot down range and you were to fire it at an angle that was 89.99999 degrees off a line perpendicular to the backstop I think we'd all agree that that round DID NOT go down range. So why when we say face downrange is there any question that we mean facing the freakin backstop. one of two degrees, OK, we aren't taking a protractor and snapping lines out here, but sheesh, face the backstop and shoot the COF. All this monkey crap makes me want to call out a squad of trunk monkeys to deal with all the range lawyers!

Jim (I could go on, but my medication is kicking in now) Norman

[wgnoyes]

And the thing is, this wasn't even a USPSA Level 1 match, this was a piddly weekly fun shoot!

[Flexmoney]

IF I were to tell you to fire a shot down range and you were to fire it at an angle that was 89.99999 degrees off a line perpendicular to the backstop I think we'd all agree that that round DID NOT go down range.

No sir. That is "downrange". No DQ.

Bill, I don't think there is so much debate on what "facings" means.

The talk needs to be centered on what downrnage means. We can't have it meaning different things in the 7 references to it in the rule book.

As I said earlier, the proper thing to do (and I know you all have said this yourself in the past) is to clearly write it up in the WSB. We want clarity and consistency when running the shooters. To get there, we need to write it into the WSB.

If you want the shooter to face directly at the backstop, then that is easy enough to write in, I think.

[Thomas Moore]

I agree with Flex on this one. Besides the topic of discussion is "facing uprange" not downrange.

just my $0.02

[boz1911]

And the thing is, this wasn't even a USPSA Level 1 match, this was a piddly weekly fun shoot!

Might be a weekly match, but personally, I compete at the same level of intensity as any other match.

In 3 years of doing this stuff, I had never been corrected on a downrange start, nor have I corrected someone on a downrange start. I have also watched hundreds if not thousands of starts that were not perpendicular to 180. It would appear there are 2 distinct opinions here, perhaps some official clarification is needed ???

Sorry for hijacking your thread Flex. I DO appreciate the definition of facing uprange, especially since at 52 and 274lbs I can't twist up like a friggin' coil spring off a 64 Impala.......

[wgnoyes]

And since it's a fun shoot and not a USPSA Level 1 event, we might just have to have us a nostalgia night sometime soon here. Any old guys remember "limited comstock", that is, virginia count scoring on a field course? How about required reloads on the same stage? It's coming....

Edited July 30, 2008 by wgnoyes

[AikiDale]

Having only received a "C" in geometry, and that more than 40 years ago, would someone please (pardon the pun) straighten me out about "Face and feet pointing straight uprange with shoulders parallel to the 90-degree median intercept of the backstop"?

If a line intercepts the backstop at 90 degrees and one's shoulders are parallel to that line while one's feet and face are pointing uprange, would not one's shoulders be at 90 degrees to the plane of one's face?

[Flexmoney]

Having only received a "C" in geometry, and that more than 40 years ago, would someone please (pardon the pun) straighten me out about "Face and feet pointing straight uprange with shoulders parallel to the 90-degree median intercept of the backstop"?

Sure...as in post #3 of this thread...

Square the f*#k up!

[Putty]

Tough crowd....

[Nik Habicht]

As I said earlier, the proper thing to do (and I know you all have said this yourself in the past) is to clearly write it up in the WSB. We want clarity and consistency when running the shooters. To get there, we need to write it into the WSB.

I agree --- that's the best solution.

If you want the shooter to face directly at the backstop, then that is easy enough to write in, I think.

Or, as in the case of many a major I've shot here, they come close in the written description, the CRO demonstrates the desired position, and the RO running shooters won't start anyone until they're in the desired start position....

Bottom line --- RO, backed up by CRO and RM, has final authority to ensure compliance --- although I suppose you could arbitrate....

I've gotten past caring --- ROs are forever telling me the start position, because unless it's something really crazy, or it majorly affects the first shooting position, I totally gloss over it in stage prep.....

[George Jones]

Having only received a "C" in geometry, and that more than 40 years ago, would someone please (pardon the pun) straighten me out about "Face and feet pointing straight uprange with shoulders parallel to the 90-degree median intercept of the backstop"?

If a line intercepts the backstop at 90 degrees and one's shoulders are parallel to that line while one's feet and face are pointing uprange, would not one's shoulders be at 90 degrees to the plane of one's face?

That terminology (90-degree median intercept) was used since it is the "formal" way to describe the 180. The problem appears to be that when used in the context of this rule, the wording is somewhat different than in Rule 10.5.2 which says "further than 90 degrees from the median intercept".

So I understand (and agree) with your confusion. What it should have said is something like "perpendicular to the median intercept".

So I'll fess up. Since I was involved in writing some of this stuff, I will forward this to John Amidon for his review.

[steel1212]

Square the f*#k up!

All I can say is if anybody shoots in my squad on sunday and there is a facing up range start, you had better bet I'll use this qoute cause Flex said so lol

[Jim Norman]

IF I were to tell you to fire a shot down range and you were to fire it at an angle that was 89.99999 degrees off a line perpendicular to the backstop I think we'd all agree that that round DID NOT go down range.

No sir. That is "downrange". No DQ.

I agree that this is not a DQable shot, the comment was made to illustrate a point. Shooting into the side of a pit is not the same as firing downrange, it IS firing across the range.

Jim

[steel1212]

Answer me a couple questions.

A) does it say anywhere in the blue book how someone is suppose to start if downrange?

does it say anywhere in the blue book how someone is suppose to start if uprange (hint page 56)

From what I understand if you don't say face and feet pointing straight downrange with shoulders parrell to the 90 degree intercept of the back stop in your WSB then your SOL other than starting them safely.

Just put it in the WSB how you want them to start. There is a reason its called freestyle it allows us to make our own choices good or bad on how we want to shoot the stage. If you want us to start a certain way then say what you mean don't let us try to read your mind.

Oh by the way if all you say is facing down range and the rule book doesn't define downrange, by your definition I'm "facing" down range if I just point my "face" in the direction of "downrange". ;-)

Edited July 31, 2008 by steel1212

[AikiDale]

Having only received a "C" in geometry, and that more than 40 years ago, would someone please (pardon the pun) straighten me out about "Face and feet pointing straight uprange with shoulders parallel to the 90-degree median intercept of the backstop"?

If a line intercepts the backstop at 90 degrees and one's shoulders are parallel to that line while one's feet and face are pointing uprange, would not one's shoulders be at 90 degrees to the plane of one's face?

That terminology (90-degree median intercept) was used since it is the "formal" way to describe the 180. The problem appears to be that when used in the context of this rule, the wording is somewhat different than in Rule 10.5.2 which says "further than 90 degrees from the median intercept".

So I understand (and agree) with your confusion. What it should have said is something like "perpendicular to the median intercept".

So I'll fess up. Since I was involved in writing some of this stuff, I will forward this to John Amidon for his review.

Thanks George. Although your post was not as half witty as some above it was far more informative!

[JKSNIPER]

Some of this sounds like a certain guy named Bill who debated the meaning of the word "is" a while ago.

IMHO

If you are R.O.ing a stage and it calls for an uprange facing start and the guy does not assume the proper squared up starting position then don't start him until he does.

As long as there is consistency and it is done the same way for every shooter then there should not be a problem.

If the guy wants to argue and be a range lawyer then thats grounds for summary execution (only fooling guys) but you should be allowed to smack him in the back of the head like moms do all the time to their disrespectful kids when they get out of line.

Tell that idiot (in your best Gunny Ermey USMC D.I. voice) that:

"If you can't figure out what square up and face uprange means then you should not be holding an object that has the potential to take someones life so if you can't get it right I'm going to kick you off the range until you allocate one of your 5 working brain cells for something other than life support......numbn*ts!"

"DID YOUR MOMMA HAVE ANY CHILDREN THAT LIVED?"

JK

[wgnoyes]

Yeah, I'm about ready to help Jim go get a squad of his truck monkeys to fix this <sarcastic quote> problem </sarcastic quote>.

[JThompson]

Square the f*#k up!

All I can say is if anybody shoots in my squad on sunday and there is a facing up range start, you had better bet I'll use this qoute cause Flex said so lol

To be followed by, "Chest out stomach in maggot!"

[JKSNIPER]

Yeah, I'm about ready to help Jim go get a squad of his truck monkeys to fix this <sarcastic quote> problem </sarcastic quote>.

No truck monkeys here Bill but my wife's name ends in a vowel.

Her uncle Nunzio is a classic from Brooklyn.

"Hey you no square-a da up ? I breaka da legs!"

Maybe we can hire him out to ranges/matches just to resolve problems like this:

Nunzio: "You gotta da complaint?"

Shooter: "Complaint? No I have no complaints. I like the facing uprange,one handed handstand on my strong hand while holding the 40 pound ram in my other hand and my ammo in my teeth start. Why do you ask?"

Nunzio: "Good. Den shutta you mouth and shoot da gun!"

JK

[XRe]

Yeah, I'm about ready to help Jim go get a squad of his truck monkeys to fix this <sarcastic quote> problem </sarcastic quote>.

You know, this surprises me a bit, given your former "proud range lawyer" status, Bill Until the rulebook defines "downrange" as specifically as it defines "uprange", "downrange" is any direction that is just that - its a 180 degree swath. Any legal direction to fire a shot in. You want someone narrower than that, put it in the WSB - writing a few words to completely define a start position is simple, definitive, and a hell of a lot more specific than "moral outrage" because someone doesn't "get it" the way you do (that applies to you, too, Mr. Norman ). You guys just need to lighten up...

What's with this latest batch of "people should just know what's intended and do it" crap? Used to be that it was generally accepted that the course designer was responsible for defining these things (and we'd strive to write our courses to be far more bulletproof). Feeling sloppy or lazy about your course designing, or being grumpy because someone wants to game it, is not an excuse to make up rules and definitions that don't exist, or insist that everyone should believe that you do, or you're going to visit violence upon them....

Should "downrange" be narrowly defined, like "uprange" is? Frankly, I don't think uprange should be defined like that, either - but given that "downrange" is the default, that means you very narrowly define the possibilities, and you have course designers instead having to write out course descriptions that allow looser definitions of "downrange" than the default. If its critical to you that the shooter have shoulders square to the backstop, say so. Here, you can cut and paste: "Start position: standing facing downrange in <box A> with hands relaxed at sides, shoulders and hips parallel to the backstop, toes and eyes pointing straight downrange." I've done the hard work for you.

Nothing amuses me more than seeing people try to "game" the start positions in these situations and twist themselves up into pretzels in the start position. First, it just looks funny, but I never mind it when people hand me points for free - you're far faster to be relaxed and standing (truly) naturally. In fact, the IPSC Monkey draw is slower than hands fully relaxed at sides.... Hey, while I'm at it.... some ROs need to look at human anatomy, and understand that a relaxed arm is not fully straight....