Flexmoney Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 The new rule book defines Facing Uprange in the glossary. Facing Uprange . . . . . . . .Face and feet pointing straight uprange with shoulders parallel to the 90-degree median intercept of the backstop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 (edited) The new rule book defines Facing Uprange in the glossary.Facing Uprange . . . . . . . .Face and feet pointing straight uprange with shoulders parallel to the 90-degree median intercept of the backstop. I think this would have been a little more elegant... "Shoulders parallel to the 90-degree median intercept of the backstop with face/head perpendicular to shoulders." JT Edited for having read the rule wrong.... Edited July 28, 2008 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 28, 2008 Author Share Posted July 28, 2008 I think this would have been a little more elegant... Yeah, or maybe... Square the f*#k up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fireant Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 I think this would have been a little more elegant... Yeah, or maybe... Square the f*#k up! That sounds like a local range command around here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 28, 2008 Author Share Posted July 28, 2008 You do what you can...to assist the shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NMBOpen Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Thanks for bringing awareness to this definition Flex. At this year's High Desert Classic my stage had an uprange start. I wouldn't start anyone who showed only one ear and one shoulder when I stood directly in front of the start box. I asked that the shooter square up to me so that I could at least see both ears and both shoulders (from the front!). Stricter standards to be applied henceforth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 I think this would have been a little more elegant... Yeah, or maybe... Square the f*#k up! HAHAHAHAAHAHH Damn Flex I didn't know you had it in you! That shit right there is funnnnnnny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsb45acp Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 I think this would have been a little more elegant... Yeah, or maybe... Square the f*#k up! The rules, and world, according to Flex...I Like It! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 I think this would have been a little more elegant... "Shoulders parallel to the 90-degree median intercept of the backstop with face/head perpendicular to shoulders."JT Edited for having read the rule wrong.... Well, o.k., except that wording allows a facing downrange start..... ....it is so specific though as to allow only a straight down or up range start..... :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 I think this would have been a little more elegant... "Shoulders parallel to the 90-degree median intercept of the backstop with face/head perpendicular to shoulders."JT Edited for having read the rule wrong.... Well, o.k., except that wording allows a facing downrange start..... ....it is so specific though as to allow only a straight down or up range start..... :D If the guy can turn his head 180 I'll start him that way. Whoooo Whoooo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 Already won a dollar on this new definiton in the glossary. Shooter finally squared up and gave me my buck after a little "rules" reading.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maineshootah Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 Square the f*#k up! +1000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 Whilst on the subject...sorta...I was recently asked to face a little more "downrange". Even with my insistence that I was facing downrange (actually about 45 degrees"), I finally had to comply and face a little more downrange. I have searched and not found any thorough description of facing "downrange". Is there such?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronEqualizer Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 Whilst on the subject...sorta...I was recently asked to face a little more "downrange". Even with my insistence that I was facing downrange (actually about 45 degrees"), I finally had to comply and face a little more downrange. I have searched and not found any thorough description of facing "downrange".Is there such?? Hmmmm.....Had a similiar situation recently where I asked the shooter to face more downrange. Standing at the angle he was at the gun was amost at the 180 at the start. I would also like a clarification of facing downrange. IE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 Whilst on the subject...sorta...I was recently asked to face a little more "downrange". Even with my insistence that I was facing downrange (actually about 45 degrees"), I finally had to comply and face a little more downrange. I have searched and not found any thorough description of facing "downrange".Is there such?? You were facing 45 degrees to the wall, both feet and face. 8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides. A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. “Arms hanging naturally by sides” is illustrated in Appendix E3. So let's consider. If facing uprange is pointedly defined as: Face and feet pointing straight uprange with shoulders parallel to the 90-degree median intercept of the backstop. Where then is the logic in believing that "facing downrange" means anything except "face and feet pointing straight downrange with shoulders parallel to the 90-degree median intercept of the backstop"? Right? (And my 15 year old .38super is still louder than your brand new 9mm major!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 Whilst on the subject...sorta...I was recently asked to face a little more "downrange". Even with my insistence that I was facing downrange (actually about 45 degrees"), I finally had to comply and face a little more downrange. I have searched and not found any thorough description of facing "downrange".Is there such?? You were facing 45 degrees to the wall, both feet and face. 8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides. A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. “Arms hanging naturally by sides” is illustrated in Appendix E3. So let's consider. If facing uprange is pointedly defined as: Face and feet pointing straight uprange with shoulders parallel to the 90-degree median intercept of the backstop. Where then is the logic in believing that "facing downrange" means anything except "face and feet pointing straight downrange with shoulders parallel to the 90-degree median intercept of the backstop"? Right? (And my 15 year old .38super is still louder than your brand new 9mm major!) Seems like a no brainer to me.... Why would the rules change because you are facing the other way.... well cept pulling the pistol and all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 Whilst on the subject...sorta...I was recently asked to face a little more "downrange". Even with my insistence that I was facing downrange (actually about 45 degrees"), I finally had to comply and face a little more downrange. I have searched and not found any thorough description of facing "downrange".Is there such?? You were facing 45 degrees to the wall, both feet and face. 8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides. A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. “Arms hanging naturally by sides” is illustrated in Appendix E3. So let's consider. If facing uprange is pointedly defined as: Face and feet pointing straight uprange with shoulders parallel to the 90-degree median intercept of the backstop. Where then is the logic in believing that "facing downrange" means anything except "face and feet pointing straight downrange with shoulders parallel to the 90-degree median intercept of the backstop"? Right? (And my 15 year old .38super is still louder than your brand new 9mm major!) If your head and shoulders are in line with the 180, I don't see what difference it makes if your toes aren't pointed exactly 90-degrees to the 180. Sometimes stages don't have the backstop and the 180 line exactly the same...and sometimes they're quite a bit different if the course requires movement towards one side of the bay. Having your toes splayed out a bit doesn't cheat the start position if it's facing downrange. Having your toes splayed out does cheat the start position if it's facing uprange since it will allow a faster turn. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 29, 2008 Author Share Posted July 29, 2008 Downrange As a shooter, I'll start facing the target...gun, face, feet...everything. If you want something different there, better get the Range Master to write in into the stage description (assuming no other shooters have started differently). Downrange isn't in the glossary. Write your stage briefings clearly. (If anything, downrange is defined by the 180 in various references in our rule book.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 In this case the first desired target of opportunity isn't even visible from the start box. Since this was a stage built on an indoor range (new bit of information for everyone), "downrange" here denoted by the 180 is the backstop where the bullet trap is located. Therefore, if you're facing the wall at an angle, then you're not "facing downrange" as required by the stage description. You know, we could fix this "problem" by painting toe marks on the edge of the starting box and specify "toes on the marks" and all that, but I should think that as men and women of intelligence and common sense, it's not that great a leap to extrapolate that since "facing uprange" is defined in painful detail, "facing downrange" logically would be fall under the same parameters, the difference being changing the direction 180 degrees. To me, saying the definition of "facing" changes based on the direction employed is like saying 9 of the 10 amendments in the Bill of Rights guarantee individual rights, while the remaining one guarantees government rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 When I want competitors to start in a certain identical manner, I'll find something to compel them into that position --- could be spelled out in procedure (Seated on chair, back flat against backrest, hands flat on thighs), make some XXs out of hard cover tape on a wall, table, door, or faultline with the written stipulation that hands or fingertips or feet or toes need to be touching one or more XXs while the shooter is inside or outside the freefire zone.... Sometimes I'll spell it out differently --- Standing at the location of shooter's choice in the free fire zone, relaxed, hands naturally at sides..... It all depends on what I want or need.... XXs are pretty fast to create, and can be peeled off at the end of the match. I've always got hard cover tape and black spray paint in my tool bag.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 29, 2008 Author Share Posted July 29, 2008 We could apply the logic test a number of ways. - If we aren't facing "uprange" then we must be facing "downrange". (if we used the logic of opposites) - If we do a search in the rulebook for "downrange", what we come up with is references that correspond with not breaking the 180. - Logic might tell us that if they wanted "downrange" to be so narrowly defined (as to be directly at the back berm) , then they would have defined it as such when they defined "uprange". Regardless, it is always best to clearly spell out what the start position is in the WSB. "Facing Uprange" has been narrowly defined with the latest rulebook, but we still need to be clear on our start positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Carlin Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 (edited) In this case the first desired target of opportunity isn't even visible from the start box. Since this was a stage built on an indoor range (new bit of information for everyone), "downrange" here denoted by the 180 is the backstop where the bullet trap is located. Therefore, if you're facing the wall at an angle, then you're not "facing downrange" as required by the stage description. You know, we could fix this "problem" by painting toe marks on the edge of the starting box and specify "toes on the marks" and all that, but I should think that as men and women of intelligence and common sense, it's not that great a leap to extrapolate that since "facing uprange" is defined in painful detail, "facing downrange" logically would be fall under the same parameters, the difference being changing the direction 180 degrees. To me, saying the definition of "facing" changes based on the direction employed is like saying 9 of the 10 amendments in the Bill of Rights guarantee individual rights, while the remaining one guarantees government rights. Bill, I agree, if the uprange is clearly defined then downrange is the EXACT opposite. Edited July 29, 2008 by Michael Carlin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 The new rule book defines Facing Uprange in the glossary.Facing Uprange . . . . . . . .Face and feet pointing straight uprange with shoulders parallel to the 90-degree median intercept of the backstop. Brain: knocks dust of lock to memory bank, inserts this into memory, goes back to...now what was I doing? I ROed somebody the other day that "neck on a swivel" thing before starting. Hind sight I guess he wasn't "facing" uprange and I shouldn't have started them. Now that its defined in the rule book I guess I have something to fall back on. Side note, and I do this, using El Prez as an example, I guess we are no longer allowed to angle our feet in the direction we are going to turn now? I've always touched the back of the box with my toes but angled them a bit. anybody got a page number in the book for this rule so I can mark it lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 The new rule book defines Facing Uprange in the glossary.Facing Uprange . . . . . . . .Face and feet pointing straight uprange with shoulders parallel to the 90-degree median intercept of the backstop. Brain: knocks dust of lock to memory bank, inserts this into memory, goes back to...now what was I doing? I ROed somebody the other day that "neck on a swivel" thing before starting. Hind sight I guess he wasn't "facing" uprange and I shouldn't have started them. Now that its defined in the rule book I guess I have something to fall back on. Side note, and I do this, using El Prez as an example, I guess we are no longer allowed to angle our feet in the direction we are going to turn now? I've always touched the back of the box with my toes but angled them a bit. anybody got a page number in the book for this rule so I can mark it lol. It's located in the glossary. Page 55 I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 - Logic might tell us that if they wanted "downrange" to be so narrowly defined (as to be directly at the back berm) , then they would have defined it as such when they defined "uprange". You expect a lot out of that crowd (the USPSA BOD), don't you? Oh, and "downrange" occurs 7 times in the rulebook. The pertinent rule for this discussion appears on page 36: 8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange (emphasis added), with arms hanging naturally by the sides. A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. “Arms hanging naturally by sides” is illustrated in Appendix E3. The other rules containing the character string "downrange" are 2.1.4 Target Locations, 5.7.2 Malfunctions - Competitors Equipment, 5.7.4 Same, 8.3.7 Range Commands ICHDH, 10.5.6 Match DQ - Unsafe Gun Handling, and Appendix B1 (trimming stakes flush with targets). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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