POLL: Should a gun that's Production Legal be illegal...

[mpolans]

"Appendix D4-22: Specifically prohibited modifications and features - Prototype and Single-Action-Only handguns..."

"Sci-Tech Dictionary:

double action (¦dəb·əl ′ak·shən) - (ordnance) Method of fire in a revolver and in old-style rifles and shotguns in which a single pull of the trigger both cocks and fires the weapon."

Hypothetical: Suppose you have a *VERY* popular striker-fired gun that is production legal. In its stock form, when the trigger is pulled, this gun simultaneously cocks back its striker a tiny, miniscule amount, then releases it and fires the gun. Suppose lots of folks are doing trigger jobs, in which the "cocking back the striker" portion is reduced or eliminated. Is the gun still legal for Production?

NOTE: This isn't in regard to Glocks since, even when modified, pulling the trigger DOES cock the striker back before firing it.

Edited July 30, 2008 by mpolans

[JKSNIPER]

I thought it was easy to determine.

I was under the impression that trigger jobs were prohibited for production.

Is this correct?

JK

[North]

I thought it was easy to determine.

I was under the impression that trigger jobs were prohibited for production.

Is this correct?

JK

If it is no one told Rich.

http://www.canyoncreekcustom.com/Production_Ready.html

[mpolans]

I thought it was easy to determine.

I was under the impression that trigger jobs were prohibited for production.

Is this correct?

JK

Nope. Trigger jobs are allowed as long as there aren't any external modifications. This came up when some folks started shaving the safety tab on their Glock triggers when modifying them for less take up and shorter travel.

[mpolans]

I thought it was easy to determine.

I was under the impression that trigger jobs were prohibited for production.

Is this correct?

JK

If it is no one told Rich.

http://www.canyoncreekcustom.com/Production_Ready.html

Or Charlie Vanek.

http://vanekcustom.com/3.html

[HoMiE]

[North]

I did not vote because I think "double action" means if I have a light primer strike I can actually pull the trigger again and something might happen. Pulling the trigger on a 1911, Glock, XD, (not sure about M&P) results in the same thing thing; a firing pin hits the primer, but you have to cycle the slide for it to be ready for another shot.

A CZ, beretta, new Taurus, about any double action with a hammer, or DA revolver actually cocks the hammer.

In my humble opinion the Glocks and XD type pistols should be legal for Limited, L-10 and Open.

Edited for spelling

Edited July 28, 2008 by North

[el pres]

Now thats funny right there !! It's in line to become the next popcorn smiley !!

[JKSNIPER]

Mpolans,

I just checked the rules for production online and unless it is authorized it is prohibited.

I saw no authorization for the trigger job you described .

"Unless specifically authorized above, modifications are prohibited." Page 75 Appendix D-4 of the USPSA rule book.

and the authorized modifications section states :

"Authorized Modifications. Strictly limited to these items and their stated guidelines." Page 75 Appendix D-4 section 21

I'm no expert but based on the rulebook I believe what you refer to is prohibited.

JK

[Nik Habicht]

I think that horse left the barn about 2001.....

Production works --- let's not monkey with it.....

[mpolans]

When/where was it discussed before?

[Rocket35]

Ditto

[North]

The no minimum trigger pull #6 pg 74 is what makes these legal. That and being on the approved list.

Edited July 28, 2008 by North

[JKSNIPER]

I think that horse left the barn about 2001.....

Production works --- let's not monkey with it.....

Nik,

Was I correct in what I said or did I get it wrong?

Although I am not new to shooting I AM new to all the rules specific to USPSA.

Just want to make sure I did not steer someone wrong.

JK

[HoMiE]

When/where was it discussed before?

Search in the USPSA/IPSC Rules sub-forum. Bunch of topics when they wanted to make a minimum trigger pull, what trigger mods are allowed, etc. in Production division.

I don't worry about what trigger you have in your gun. Nobody has made a trigger that can make you call your shots.

[Nik Habicht]

JK -- you got it wrong... :P Keep reading....

Pretty much since Production Division came online in 2001 (I think), there has been debate between purists (Shoot it as it comes from the factory with no modifications whatsoever) and non-purists (as long as it's iron-sighted, DA/DAO/Safe action or equivalent, minor scoring, no magwell, no race holster, it's all good) about the intent of Production Division. At the same time there;s been debate over allowing/not allowing striker fired autos in the division. Heck, in the first proposal for the current rules there was a proposal for a first shot minimum trigger pull --- which probably would have killed off striker fired guns in the division.

All of these topics have been discussed here ad nauseam --- do a search, who knows what other interesting things you might find, when you go poking around..... :D

As to the specific rules question --- here's what's specifically allowed:

21 Authorized modifications (Strictly limited to these items and their stated guidelines)

•Internal throating and polishing to improve accuracy, reliability and function

•Sights – trimmed, adjusted, replaced, colored, or fiber-optic.

•Slide – refinishing. Milling of slide – only as required to insert sights.

•After-market slides and barrels – provided they are the same length, contour, and caliber as original factory standard.

•Grips – Internal beveling. Checkering, stippling, and addition of grip tape or grip sleeves. (see Appendix E4)

•Exchange of minor components (springs, safeties, slide stops, guide rods).

See the two bits in bold? That's what most trigger jobs are performed under --- the replacement of minor components with modified/tweaked/polished/redesigned minor components and springs. I've been playing mainly in this division since 2003, and I've never been beat by a better gun --- and the longer I keep doing this the closer my Glock gets to stock. I've been beat by plenty of better shooters --- but when I beat one of them, it's because I had a good day with a gun I know and have been shooting for eight years (and at the same time the better shooter had to have a very bad day... :lol: )

So what's my point? I like the concept of being able to modify my gun a bit, without needing a smith and a multi-thousand dollar custom build. I want other people to have that same freedom to decide --- within the confines of the Division. Last but not least --- when I started shooting in 2003 nobody was shooting in the division. As an example I was one of 34 Production shooters at the 2003 Summer Blast; at the 2008 Summer Blast there were 87 --- had i not switched to Limited for that match, there would have been a three way tie between Open, Limited, and Production at 88 shooters a piece....

This division works --- shooters are voting with their entry fees.....

[JKSNIPER]

Nik,

Thanks hombre.

Sorry for getting it wrong.

I WILL read that stuff.

Apologies to all.

JK

[mpolans]

When/where was it discussed before?

Search in the USPSA/IPSC Rules sub-forum. Bunch of topics when they wanted to make a minimum trigger pull, what trigger mods are allowed, etc. in Production division.

I don't worry about what trigger you have in your gun. Nobody has made a trigger that can make you call your shots.

But I don't see how the minimum trigger pull argument is related...it's already well established (dead-horse beaten) that a Glock with a 2lb trigger is legal while a Single-Action-Only 1911 with a 5lb pull is not because the when the Glock's trigger is pulled, the striker is pulled to the rear, before it is released.

This has nothing to do with a minimum trigger weight, but rather with the design of the action.

[HoMiE]

"Appendix D4-22: Specifically prohibited modifications and features - Prototype and Single-Action-Only handguns..."

Dem's da rules.

Here's a previous topic that covers a lot...

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=40928

Edited July 28, 2008 by HoMiE

[Johann the Horrible]

In IPSC there is a minimum of 5lbs trigger rule. As with USPSA if you fail that you get to play in the Open pond. The only reason I mention that here is to bring to everyone attention that there is differences between IPSC and USPSA. IMHO this is very relevant in a World shoot year. I am not saying the one is better than the other, just different. There is of course also other differences in PD that World Shoot competitors should note.

Edited because I cannot spell to save my front teeth.

Edited July 28, 2008 by Johann the Horrible

[vluc]

Suppose lots of folks are doing trigger jobs, in which the "cocking back the striker" portion is reduced or eliminated. Is the gun still legal for Production?

If it's reduced. it is still there, and is a moot point. If it is eliminated - well, you must have a specific example in mind. Might make it easier to understand exactly what you are referencing.

[mpolans]

Suppose lots of folks are doing trigger jobs, in which the "cocking back the striker" portion is reduced or eliminated. Is the gun still legal for Production?

If it's reduced. it is still there, and is a moot point. If it is eliminated - well, you must have a specific example in mind. Might make it easier to understand exactly what you are referencing.

Smith and Wesson M&P ( MandP ). The stock sear has a slight hump on it where it engages the striker, such that the sear cams the striker back before releasing it. In the course of performing a trigger job, this is often ground down such that the camming action is reduced in order to get a better trigger pull. If you take it down enough, the striker wouldn't be cammed back at all and you would have a single action trigger.

Edited July 28, 2008 by mpolans

[LPatterson]

Suppose lots of folks are doing trigger jobs, in which the "cocking back the striker" portion is reduced or eliminated. Is the gun still legal for Production?

If it's reduced. it is still there, and is a moot point. If it is eliminated - well, you must have a specific example in mind. Might make it easier to understand exactly what you are referencing.

Smith and Wesson M&P ( MandP ). The stock sear has a slight hump on it where it engages the striker, such that the sear cams the striker back before releasing it. In the course of performing a trigger job, this is often ground down such that the camming action is reduced in order to get a better trigger pull. If you take it down enough, the striker wouldn't be cammed back at all and you would have a single action trigger.

Since you mention the camming effect in an M&P perhaps you should look at the XD since pulling the slide to the rear fully cocks the striker as evidenced by the striker indicator. Only the grip safety & trigger bar safety keep the gun from firing so where is the double action. Is an XD double action the simultaneous gripping the gun and pulling the trigger?

Since the XD was declared Production legal I have forsaken the Beretta 92FS Vertec I stated with and use a tricked out XD with a trigger job. I know it is the indian and not the arrow that matters but there are very few GM indians that are not working with the best arrows available.

[el pres]

Suppose lots of folks are doing trigger jobs, in which the "cocking back the striker" portion is reduced or eliminated. Is the gun still legal for Production?

If it's reduced. it is still there, and is a moot point. If it is eliminated - well, you must have a specific example in mind. Might make it easier to understand exactly what you are referencing.

Smith and Wesson M&P ( MandP ). The stock sear has a slight hump on it where it engages the striker, such that the sear cams the striker back before releasing it. In the course of performing a trigger job, this is often ground down such that the camming action is reduced in order to get a better trigger pull. If you take it down enough, the striker wouldn't be cammed back at all and you would have a single action trigger.

Since you mention the camming effect in an M&P perhaps you should look at the XD since pulling the slide to the rear fully cocks the striker as evidenced by the striker indicator. Only the grip safety & trigger bar safety keep the gun from firing so where is the double action. Is an XD double action the simultaneous gripping the gun and pulling the trigger?

Since the XD was declared Production legal I have forsaken the Beretta 92FS Vertec I stated with and use a tricked out XD with a trigger job. I know it is the indian and not the arrow that matters but there are very few GM indians that are not working with the best arrows available.

Thats why an XD shoots in a different class from a Glock in IDPA. It shoots in ESP because they consider it

a single action where a Glock is a double ???

[vluc]

Interesting commentary on the M&P and XD. Both internal work, not visible, and there is no safety check performed at the chrono to insure that ALL safeties are working in any gun.

I wouldn't go so far as to say they are illegal for use, but now, as a CRO, I have more concerns about safety than anything else.

I leave the technical definition of Single versus Double Action to the Powers that be elsewhere.

Thanks for the lesson - learn something new every day!