maineshootah Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 Ok, this came up at one of the local matches. Popper, when hit will activate swinger. The swinger is behind hardcover and cannot be seen (at all) from the FFZ. Shooter engages popper and transitions to where the swinger should appear....and the popper does not fall. Engages again.. and does not fall... Engages again.. and does not fall... Drives it down with 4 rounds, and now the swinger appears. IF.. the shooter would have stopped after a hit or two on the popper and called for a calibration. AND IF the popper went down with the calibration, would the shooter been tagged with a miss on the steel, 2 misses on the swinger and a FTE? I could look this up, but I am on the road without my rulebook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerT Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 You've got it right about the misses, one fort steel and two for the swinger. I'm not sure about the FTE, since the shooter tried to activate the swinger by hitting the popper. Thoughts, anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 Ok, this came up at one of the local matches.Popper, when hit will activate swinger. The swinger is behind hardcover and cannot be seen (at all) from the FFZ. Shooter engages popper and transitions to where the swinger should appear....and the popper does not fall. Engages again.. and does not fall... Engages again.. and does not fall... Drives it down with 4 rounds, and now the swinger appears. IF.. the shooter would have stopped after a hit or two on the popper and called for a calibration. AND IF the popper went down with the calibration, would the shooter been tagged with a miss on the steel, 2 misses on the swinger and a FTE? I could look this up, but I am on the road without my rulebook. Here ya go! http://www.uspsa.org/rules/2008HandgunRulesindexed.pdf Later, Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 Popper, when hit will activate swinger. The swinger is behind hardcover and cannot be seen (at all) from the FFZ.Shooter engages popper and transitions to where the swinger should appear....and the popper does not fall. Engages again.. and does not fall... Engages again.. and does not fall... Drives it down with 4 rounds, and now the swinger appears. IF.. the shooter would have stopped after a hit or two on the popper and called for a calibration. AND IF the popper went down with the calibration, would the shooter been tagged with a miss on the steel, 2 misses on the swinger and a FTE? If the shooter stops himself, without finishing the stage, he takes the chance of a whole bunch of penalties if the popper falls on the calibration challenge. (The best thing to do when a popper doesn't fall is to finish the stage, then call for calibration). If the popper went down on calibration, Mike on that popper, two Mikes and an FTE on the target. Once the shooter drops the popper, a calibration challenge is no longer available and the stage is scored normally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 The odds of winning a calibration are rarely in the shooter's favor --- my advice is to always drive activating poppers down, and only ask for calibration on standalone poppers that you may have missed, hit low, or edged, without realizing it at the time..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 Popper, when hit will activate swinger. The swinger is behind hardcover and cannot be seen (at all) from the FFZ.Shooter engages popper and transitions to where the swinger should appear....and the popper does not fall. Engages again.. and does not fall... Engages again.. and does not fall... Drives it down with 4 rounds, and now the swinger appears. IF.. the shooter would have stopped after a hit or two on the popper and called for a calibration. AND IF the popper went down with the calibration, would the shooter been tagged with a miss on the steel, 2 misses on the swinger and a FTE? If the shooter stops himself, without finishing the stage, he takes the chance of a whole bunch of penalties if the popper falls on the calibration challenge. (The best thing to do when a popper doesn't fall is to finish the stage, then call for calibration). If the popper went down on calibration, Mike on that popper, two Mikes and an FTE on the target. Once the shooter drops the popper, a calibration challenge is no longer available and the stage is scored normally. Unless the swinger is a disappearing target... in which case he would incur one popper Mike and an FTE, on the paper for not activating the swinger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maineshootah Posted July 21, 2008 Author Share Posted July 21, 2008 The odds of winning a calibration are rarely in the shooter's favor --- my advice is to always drive activating poppers down, and only ask for calibration on standalone poppers that you may have missed, hit low, or edged, without realizing it at the time..... This is what he ended up doing, driving it down with about 4 rounds. His issue, to which I agree.. is that the rules really punish a shooter if a steel target activates other "targets" and the steel does not fall as expected. The shooter does not get a change to "finish" the stage, as the rest of the stage is hinging on a steel popper that does not fall correctly. If it was possible to finish without the popper, sure, you gamble on 1 mike for the steel - no big deal.. roll the dice. To gamble on a whole slew of penalties due to the *possible* failure of 1 steel I think is a bit harsh. Rules are rules (thanks Chuck!) However, I would say "yes" to have that one looked over again in the future rulebook. thanks for the comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 The odds of winning a calibration are rarely in the shooter's favor --- my advice is to always drive activating poppers down, and only ask for calibration on standalone poppers that you may have missed, hit low, or edged, without realizing it at the time..... This is what he ended up doing, driving it down with about 4 rounds. His issue, to which I agree.. is that the rules really punish a shooter if a steel target activates other "targets" and the steel does not fall as expected. The shooter does not get a change to "finish" the stage, as the rest of the stage is hinging on a steel popper that does not fall correctly. If it was possible to finish without the popper, sure, you gamble on 1 mike for the steel - no big deal.. roll the dice. To gamble on a whole slew of penalties due to the *possible* failure of 1 steel I think is a bit harsh. Rules are rules (thanks Chuck!) However, I would say "yes" to have that one looked over again in the future rulebook. thanks for the comments. I'm not so sure that this is a rules change problem --- rather it seems to be a match administration/stage design and build problem. It's possible to activate movers without using shoot-em-down poppers, it's also possible to set poppers as activators in a way that virtually eliminates the possibility of failure..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 [unless the swinger is a disappearing target... in which case he would incur one popper Mike and an FTE, on the paper for not activating the swinger. I may be misreading your comment, but..... If the popper falls on calibration, it's a Mike on the popper and two Mikes and one procedural for FTE on the paper. At this point, it does not matter if the paper target disappears or not - If the paper was not engaged, it gets the Mikes and the FTE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 However, I would say "yes" to have that one looked over again in the future rulebook. That is highly doubtful (although I wouldn't presume to predict future rules changes). That rule (penalizing Misses on disappearing targets which were not activated) was specifically added several years back to prevent shooters from simply avoiding challenging target arrays. The harsh penalty made it a poor choice to skip disappearing targets by not activating them in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Throwin Lead Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 I understand that 4.3.1.5 & Appendix C1 section 6 outlines that the steel must fall & C1 gives the shooters 3 choices but in this case doesn't the popper used as an activator now become a mechanically operated device? Should the RO stop the shooter and declare a range equipment failure? If the RO watches the shooter hit the popper several times dead nuts - assuming the steel has been painted between shooters - and it doesn't fall wouldn't that in itself be reason enough for the RO to stop the shooter declaring a REF? Rule section 4.6.1 - "the malfunction of mechanically or electrically operated equipment" Under this rule wouldn't the failure of the activator popper qualify as stated in the above rule? I would think if this is a stand alone popper - not an activator - then the provisions set forth in 4.3.1.5 & appendix C1 apply. Maybe I'm thinking too much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maineshootah Posted July 21, 2008 Author Share Posted July 21, 2008 However, I would say "yes" to have that one looked over again in the future rulebook. That is highly doubtful (although I wouldn't presume to predict future rules changes). That rule (penalizing Misses on disappearing targets which were not activated) was specifically added several years back to prevent shooters from simply avoiding challenging target arrays. The harsh penalty made it a poor choice to skip disappearing targets by not activating them in the first place. I can see both sides to issue, this wasn't a disappearing target in the sense that it shows once and hides again, it swings back and forth coming to rest in the open. At the same time, whacking a shooter with FTEs and misses because a popper will not fall and therefore activate the targets to make them visible, I IMHO, think puts too much value one 1 single piece of steel. Yes, stage design could avoid this, however, in this case it didn't. Thanks for the comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maineshootah Posted July 21, 2008 Author Share Posted July 21, 2008 I understand that 4.3.1.5 & Appendix C1 section 6 outlines that the steel must fall & C1 gives the shooters 3 choices but in this case doesn't the popper used as an activator now become a mechanically operated device?Should the RO stop the shooter and declare a range equipment failure? If the RO watches the shooter hit the popper several times dead nuts - assuming the steel has been painted between shooters - and it doesn't fall wouldn't that in itself be reason enough for the RO to stop the shooter declaring a REF? Rule section 4.6.1 - "the malfunction of mechanically or electrically operated equipment" Under this rule wouldn't the failure of the activator popper qualify as stated in the above rule? I would think if this is a stand alone popper - not an activator - then the provisions set forth in 4.3.1.5 & appendix C1 apply. Maybe I'm thinking too much? This is what the shooter was thinking... wondering why the RO didn't stop him after the 3..4th.. 5th shot on the steel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry cazes Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 The odds of winning a calibration are rarely in the shooter's favor --- my advice is to always drive activating poppers down, and only ask for calibration on standalone poppers that you may have missed, hit low, or edged, without realizing it at the time..... Hmmm Don't think I would agree with this. Since I shoot 170+ PF loads, I always take 1 good hit and move on and finish the stage. I rarely end up on the wrong side of calibrations. I also don't think that this rule requires a change in the future. Of course the situation may change if your club has steel that is not well maintained or you are not careful about stage design or setup but that again is a match admin issue and has nothing to do with rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 If the RO watches the shooter hit the popper several times dead nuts - assuming the steel has been painted between shooters - and it doesn't fall wouldn't that in itself be reason enough for the RO to stop the shooter declaring a REF? Maybe I'm thinking too much? How do you know the shooter's ammo isn't at fault? Even if he passed chrono --- what if there's a mislabeled box of steel ammo in the shooter's bag --- and now magazines.... It isn't necessarily range equipment failure. It is shooter's choice --- how to proceed..... Larry and I might have different experiences with calibration due to power factor. I predominantly shoot (and shoot with) production (shooters)...... Might have to think differently during my forays into Limited..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 [unless the swinger is a disappearing target... in which case he would incur one popper Mike and an FTE, on the paper for not activating the swinger. I may be misreading your comment, but..... If the popper falls on calibration, it's a Mike on the popper and two Mikes and one procedural for FTE on the paper. At this point, it does not matter if the paper target disappears or not - If the paper was not engaged, it gets the Mikes and the FTE. Explain to me how it would be a FTE and 2 Mikes on the paper IF its a disappearing target? If you have a drop turner that is activated by the steel, I can shoot the steel and not even think twice about the drop turner and not get 2 penalty mikes and a FTE, but what your saying is if I shoot the steel and it doesn't fall then when calibrated it does fall I get 2 penalty mikes and a FTE? That doesn't make sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 [unless the swinger is a disappearing target... in which case he would incur one popper Mike and an FTE, on the paper for not activating the swinger. I may be misreading your comment, but..... If the popper falls on calibration, it's a Mike on the popper and two Mikes and one procedural for FTE on the paper. At this point, it does not matter if the paper target disappears or not - If the paper was not engaged, it gets the Mikes and the FTE. Explain to me how it would be a FTE and 2 Mikes on the paper IF its a disappearing target? If you have a drop turner that is activated by the steel, I can shoot the steel and not even think twice about the drop turner and not get 2 penalty mikes and a FTE, but what your saying is if I shoot the steel and it doesn't fall then when calibrated it does fall I get 2 penalty mikes and a FTE? That doesn't make sense to me. 9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 [unless the swinger is a disappearing target... in which case he would incur one popper Mike and an FTE, on the paper for not activating the swinger. I may be misreading your comment, but..... If the popper falls on calibration, it's a Mike on the popper and two Mikes and one procedural for FTE on the paper. At this point, it does not matter if the paper target disappears or not - If the paper was not engaged, it gets the Mikes and the FTE. Explain to me how it would be a FTE and 2 Mikes on the paper IF its a disappearing target? If you have a drop turner that is activated by the steel, I can shoot the steel and not even think twice about the drop turner and not get 2 penalty mikes and a FTE, but what your saying is if I shoot the steel and it doesn't fall then when calibrated it does fall I get 2 penalty mikes and a FTE? That doesn't make sense to me. 9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann the Horrible Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 There is a lot of disadvantages to shooting a 45, but there is one advantage. A 230gr bullet doing 750ft/sec normally drops a popper. If it does not a 9mmP is not going to do it either. In all the years that I am shooting my 45 I never "lost" calibration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 This one should be very easy, shouldn't it? According to the rules, the competitor can stop whenever he feels like, and the stage gets scored WISIWIG. It's totally a competitor's decision if and when to stop in the case of a popper that won't knock down, but I would say that a wise competitor should plan this in advance, knowing that if he stops at the popper position, he will most likely get a zeroed stage (misses and procedurals for all remaining targets) should the calibration verification prove positive. For this reason, it's never a good idea to stop for a hard popper: carry on, and then challenge the calibration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franklin D Wolverton Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 (edited) You need to take these rules together to understand the ruling... 9.9.2 Moving scoring targets, which do not comply with the above criteria are considered disappearing targets and will not incur failure to shoot at or miss penalties except where Rule 9.9.3 applies. 9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement. Therefore... if the popper falls on the calibration check... 1 miss on the steel, 1 procedural for FTE the swinger, and 2 misses on the swinger. This is the ONLY time you count misses on a disappearing target. As for the popper now being a "mechanically operated device"... no, it is still a popper. It would be range equipment failure if the popper went down but the swinger didn't activate. The popper not going down is only a calibration issue. The shooter can choose to challenge the calibration, or hit it again. I agree with the poster about the .45. Thats all I shoot, and I have never lost a calibration. Frank Edited July 30, 2008 by Franklin D Wolverton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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