Poor Accuracy in Off the Shelf Guns

[38superman]

It's no secret that mass produced guns can't match the performance of a good custom or semi-custom gun.

However, all major manufacturers have specifications and quality / accuracy standards.

Sadly, of the last four 1911 style guns I bought "off the shelf" two were poor and two were simply awful.

These four guns came from three different manufacturers.

I routinely fire new guns for group with quality factory ammo to document their "as new" performance and to sight in.

The groups are 5 shots off sandbags at 25 yds.

Two of the guns were grouping around 4" which is poor, but not too far out of line for a mass produced gun.

However, the other two guns were spraying ammo all over the target

Groups were in the 7 to 8 inch size.

When you can't cover a five shot group with a paper plate, I have no words for that other than piece of $hit.

I called one of the manufacturers recently and asked what is your accuracy standard for a full size 1911.

The reply was 3 1/2" at 25 yards.

Not one of these guns met that standard and two of the four were more than double that.

One of the worst offenders was sent back for repair and was returned to me with absolutely no improvement.

It has now become standard procedure for me to send new guns to the gunsmith to get a custom fit barrel and a new trigger group.

Is it just me or is anyone else appalled by this?

Tony

Edited July 18, 2008 by 38superman

[tpcdvc]

It's no secret that mass produced guns can't match the performance of a good custom or semi-custom gun.

However, all major manufacturers have specifications and quality / accuracy standards.

Sadly, of the last four 1911 style guns I bought "off the shelf" two were poor and two were simply awful.

These four guns came from three different manufacturers.

I routinely fire new guns for group with quality factory ammo to document their "as new" performance and to sight in.

The groups are 5 shots off sandbags at 25 yds.

Two of the guns were grouping around 4" which is poor, but not too far out of line for a mass produced gun.

However, the other two guns were spraying ammo all over the target

Groups were in the 7 to 8 inch size.

When you can't cover a five shot group with a paper plate, I have no words for that other than piece of $hit.

I called one of the manufacturers recently and asked what is your accuracy standard for a full size 1911.

The reply was 3 1/2" at 25 yards.

Not one of these guns met that standard and two of the four were more than double that.

One of the worst offenders was sent back for repair and was returned to me with absolutely no improvement.

It has now become standard procedure for me to send new guns to the gunsmith to get a custom fit barrel and a new trigger group.

Is it just me or is anyone else appalled by this?

Tony

I feel your pain. The last two factory guns I bought both had to be returned to get acceptable accuracy. They were both from the same company which will remain nameless but it rhymes with (xxxxx xxxxxx) . Now I will say that my Kimbers both shot good groups right out of the box about 2-3 inches at 25yds.

Edited July 19, 2008 by ima45dv8
removed manufacturer reference

[38superman]

None of the guns I referred to were Kimbers, but I couldn't single out any one manufacturer.

The crappy performance was across the board with 3 major gun makers.

2-3" accuracy out of the box would probably be adequate for the casual shooter and I see no reason why any reputable gun maker couldn't hold to that standard if their quality control is what it should be.

For competition, I am not comfortable with any gun that won't group consistently at 2" or less.

If my gun produces 3-4" groups off a stable rest, what I get offhand at 25 yds is probably at least double that.

This will often be the difference between an A or C hit on paper and the difference between a hit or a miss on steel.

I am quite capable of missing without any help from my gun.

To meet this 2" accuracy requirement I am forced to spend the money to upgrade the factory guns or buy custom anyway.

I just think the factory guns could and should be better than they are.

Under no circumstances shoud a gun leave the factory shooting 8" groups from a rest, but they do.

Tls

Edited July 18, 2008 by 38superman

[bgary]

Just my opinion, but... the mass market manufacturers cater to their market. Which is typically a person who doesn't shoot a lot of rounds, but will freak out if the gun "doesn't work".

So, IMHO, they tend towards looser tolerances for reliability's sake, and less towards accuracy, which the average person in their market probably won't notice anyway.

Bruce (spent an afternoon last week at an indoor range, watching a guy with a 2' x 3' target at 5 yards... and missing.)

[tpcdvc]

Just my opinion, but... the mass market manufacturers cater to their market. Which is typically a person who doesn't shoot a lot of rounds, but will freak out if the gun "doesn't work".

So, IMHO, they tend towards looser tolerances for reliability's sake, and less towards accuracy, which the average person in their market probably won't notice anyway.

Bruce (spent an afternoon last week at an indoor range, watching a guy with a 2' x 3' target at 5 yards... and missing.)

+1

[Vlad]

I think they want to make sure guns run all the time. Its not that you couldn't make a accurate gun run all the time but it would take a lot more work, isn't that why hand made competition guns cost more?

Strangely, the reverse trend can be noticed in rifles. The sub MOA factory bolt gun is fairly common now, indeed expected, even from the bargain brands.

Edited July 18, 2008 by Vlad

[Johann the Horrible]

The sub MOA factory bolt gun is fairly common now, indeed expected, even from the bargain brands.

That sir, is I believe the answer. The rifle guys get the accurate rifles, because the make a fuss if they do not get it. Us, on the other hand, get the hind tit and is just to glad to be still allowed a handgun that we shut-up and spend money on getting the product to to what it should out of the box.

Would you accept a car that does not run? Of course not, but we do accept handguns that cannot hit the side of a barn, from the inside.

[Joe4d]

All about money, and what we have allowed to happen especially in the 1911 based guns. Serious shooters have no problem buying even $2000 guns then turning around and paying a third party for tuning, accuracy and reliability work. But buy a $25 toaster that doesnt work and it would be back a Wally world faster than you can blink. So it is more profitable for manufacturers to have low QC. The shooters who care will head to a gunsmith. The other 90% who couldnt hit a paper plate at 25 yards reguardless of the accuracy wont notice. Until we start routinely returning guns to the manufacturer over and over until it is right this trend wont stop.

[Vlad]

I never got a gun that wouldn't work from the factory. Well ok, the extractors are junk, but you only find that out after 2000 rounds, so I guess it worked from the factory.

Also most guns I've got have been plenty accurate, not target grade, but decent. I dunno. I rather have a gun that works all the time and not at top accuracy, specially in a self defense type handgun. Maybe I've just been lucky or my standards are lower

[mpeltier]

All about money, and what we have allowed to happen especially in the 1911 based guns. Serious shooters have no problem buying even $2000 guns then turning around and paying a third party for tuning, accuracy and reliability work. But buy a $25 toaster that doesnt work and it would be back a Wally world faster than you can blink. So it is more profitable for manufacturers to have low QC. The shooters who care will head to a gunsmith. The other 90% who couldnt hit a paper plate at 25 yards reguardless of the accuracy wont notice. Until we start routinely returning guns to the manufacturer over and over until it is right this trend wont stop.

You nailed it right in the ten ring. It is much cheaper for a manufacturer to deal with the 10% (probably less even) of us who would be concerned with better accuracy, than to put the gross amount of effort to get 100% of them to the standard we would like to see. I would also add that the big manufacturers probably have a hard time finding and keeping skilled labor who takes the same pride in their work as days gone by.

[38supPat]

Friendly warning, this thread is treading dangerously close to the line regarding Industry hate.

• Hate rants involving shooters, firearms, or shooting related manufacturers, such as but not limited to - IPSC, IDPA, USPSA, the NRA, or Match Directors - are NOT PERMITTED.

I would respectively ask the posters who have named companies, or "rhymes with..." posts edit the respective names, or rhymes, out.

Thanks

Pat

[38superman]

Since I started this thread, let me reply by saying that I was careful not to single out any manufacturer or name names.

I respect the firearms industry as a whole and have supported them politically and financially my entire adult life.

I am particularly appreciative of the individual companies that are generous enough to lend much needed support to our sport.

I understand that competition shooters are a very demanding and very small segment of a very large market.

No one is suggesting that gun makers should expend the resources to turn operations into mass production of custom quality guns to satisfy a few.

No business model would support that.

I am only saying that every gun maker has specifications and standards of accuracy.

If you ask them they will gladly tell you what those standards are.

I am simply expressing the legitimate concerns that I have when half the guns I buy don't meet the builders own standard.

When I spend my money, waste my ammo and then expend my time sending new guns back for repair, it's not unreasonable to ask what's going on.

The firearms industry spends mountains of money promoting and marketing their products.

It's perfectly reasonable for a consumer of any industries' product to give feedback for better or worse.

Whether happy or disgusted, you are not doing them any favors by keeping it to yourself.

If that's a violation of the forum rules, then by all means, close the thread.

Tony

Edited July 20, 2008 by 38superman

[revchuck]

To meet this 2" accuracy requirement I am forced to spend the money to upgrade the factory guns or buy custom anyway.

...or buy a $200 police trade-in M10. Worked for me, anyway.

(Hey, I'm just pickin'!)

[38supPat]

Ok, this is becoming just a discussion now, I'm gonna lock.

Pat