Single stage press for .223 case prep?

[Cavediver]

It seems like a lot of folks prefer a 2 press set-up for processing .223 brass. If I choose to go this route, what single stage press should I buy? Will the $50 Lee presses work as well as an RCBS Rock Crusher?

The rest of the process will be done on a 550. Would buying an extra tool head work as well as a dedicated single stage?

FWIW, I'm not going to load a ton of rifle ammo. I don't use it in competition (yet), just plinking and target shooting.

[Guy Neill]

I feel certain the Lee can do the job, but, as I recall, it does not have the compound leverage of the RCBS or some other presses. This means that it will be harder to push the cases in the die.

Since you don't intend to load a lot of rifle ammo, you might go with the Lee, but if you find it is seeming to be more work than you want, you can get the RCBS later. The economy of the Lee is such that even if you end up replacing it with an RCBS, you haven't lost all that much.

On the other hand, if you think you will be doing more in the future, or relatively large batches of rifle cases at one time, the greater leverage of the RCBS may be best to start with.

Check with some of the people you shoot with and see if they have any single stage presses. They might be able to let you try a few cases on theirs to help you decide.

Guy

[Hank Ellis]

I'm still pretty new to .223 reloading (300 rounds) and haven't worked all the kinks out of the process. A single stage would be the hot ticket for precision reloading but my bench space is limited and finding a place to store the press when it's not in use is an issue. Decided to make do with the 550.

My process is to have a toolhead with only the sizing/decap die in station 1. After the batch has been sized then it's off to do the case prep. When I'm ready to load then another toolhead which has the rest of the dies and another sizing die. That second sizing die is set up to just run the ball through the neck in case I dinged one in the case prep process. The powder drop station I set up depending on what I'm loading for. For minute of Volkswagen ammo for under 100yds I use the Dillon powder measure and die. For precision ammo I hand measure each powder drop. I probably ought to get an upper end powder measure for this step and use it for all rifle loading. A Redding micrometer seating die for station 3 and a Dillon crimp die in station 4.

The time killers in rifle reloading are in the case prep and powder drop. My precision case prep includes trimming to length, inside neck chamfering, outside neck deburring, flash hole deburring, and primer pocket uniforming. Power tools help the process along but I don't think there is much that can be done to save time here except not to do it. Pulling cases out to hand drop powder is really slowing down my process. Again, I ought to get an upper end powder measure along with the Dillon adapter.

Accurate ammunition can be made on the 550. My first attempt at precision ammo resulted in sub-moa at 100yds and easy A-zone hits at 300yds from unsupported prone. My second attempt was with the same components just loaded a bit longer. Loaded 15 rounds starting with 22.4 and incrementing .2 to 25.2 using AA2015 and 52 A-Max. Using the Audette/ladder method of load development at 200yds I could cover all 15 shots with my hand. As soon as time allows I'll load up a batch at one of the sweet spots and see what it does for groups.

Sorry for the rambling but in a nutshell you can load on the 550 with just another toolhead rather than getting a single stage.

[fastshooter03]

I use a forster bonanza press. No messing with different shellholders and dies just slide in and out for a changeover. Highly reccommend it. The shellholder jaws are floating so they should align the case better to the die. You can also prime brass on the top of it. The only thing I don't like is the handle. The pad is wearing and it's just straight. I will probably make a new one since it is easy to take off.

My process is size once spin the case approx 180 deg then size again. That way helps take care of headspace variations especially with stuff fired in large chambers.

Once you have the brass prepped. Loading on the Dillon should be no problem.

If the lee and the rock chucker are your the only thing in your price range, I think either one should work for sizing brass.

Nick

[00bullitt]

If you don't already have the single stage....I'd say just get another toolhead for your 550. If you are going to get a single stage.....I think the only choice should be a Rockchucker.

Use the prep toolhead to size and deprime in station 1 and then trim using a Dillon trimmer. Use a universal decapper die in the first station of your reloading toolhead to clean the flash hole of any media or debris. You only need to chamfer the inside of the case mouth if you are seating flat base bullets. The Dillon spins so fast and cuts so clean that the outside has no burrs. I do not uniform or clean my primer pockets. I only ream to remove military crimps and batch them seperately. For semi auto rifles....I do not feel the extra work for benefit necessary. I load on a Dillon 650 and get 1/2 moa accuracy out to 200 yards.

[38superman]

The dual tool head sounds like a good idea.

I was planning on prepping my cases on my Rock Chucker but I might give this a try.

Tls

Edited July 7, 2008 by 38superman

[Bitswap]

Hank makes a very good point: The 550 will be as accurate as anything out there. I have verified this with some very sturdy presses (ie ammomaster).

The only Lee I'd recommend is one of their 'O' type presses. It has the advantage of being able to accomidate 1 1/4" dies and has a neat spent-primer tube setup with a hose that works 'most' the time.

The single stages allow you to use Redding's precission shellholders for 'bumping the shoulder' if the 223 is only used in one rifle. This headspace adjustment is very easy with those shellholders but can can also be done on the 550 as well.

First get some Hornady Sure-Lock Rings. These grip the threads of the die. Making your headspace adjustment is a simple matter of turning the ring instead of the die now and tightening it in the toolhead. Makes things MUCH easier. Another alternative to this is to get Sinclairs Die Shims which will do the same thing, but you'll need the Hornady rings with those as well. I only use those rings on my body dies... but is the poor mans version of a lock-and-load system. Use them and your dies will be placed in the same position every time if they need to be removed.

For my money, I'd get another toolhead, some lock rings and some die shims. If you don't care about headspace and full length sizing, then just get a toolhead.

For my shouldered rounds, like the 223, I use a three-phased process on my 550.

First I tumble, lube (dillons spray, what else?), decap, size and neck size on the dillon (three dies).

Then I tumble to remove the lube, trim to length, clean primer pockets and inside necks.

Then it's back to the Dillon for primer seating (decapper die in stage 1), charging and bullet seating.

That's a lot, I know, but it's is important you trim to length after sizing.

Edited July 6, 2008 by Bitswap

[Cavediver]

If you don't already have the single stage....I'd say just get another toolhead for your 550. If you are going to get a single stage.....I think the only choice should be a Rockchucker.

Actually, I don't have either yet

I'm currently loading 9 & .40 on an SDB. I love it for what it is, but loading for my rifle would be nice. I'm planning on selling the SDB setup to partially finance a new 550 set up for 9 & .223, with .40 showing up down the road.

I've got the bottom of the line single stage press from Lee, but it's not up to the task. It won't punch crimped primers, and I'm scared I'm going to break the arm while sizing some of the larger .223 brass... I'll eventually get one of the undersized .40 dies for it so it won't die a lonely death under the bench.

While I wanted to get all of my .223 brass prepped and ready now, I guess the best thing to do is wait until I get the 550 before adding another single stage. If I don't like the amount of force / lack of leverage on the 550, MidwayUSA can have another press on my doorstep in no time flat. (I'm not saying there is a lack of leverage, I just don't have any experience with a 550. I only know one or two other folks that reload: none of them have a 550.) Of course, if my impatience gets the best of me, I might wind up with one anyhow

Last question: since I'm only shooting 100-150 rounds of .223 per month, does it make sense to invest in the cool motorized gizmos? While I can afford it if it's the best way to go, I'd rather put the money into more consumables. (AKA: I have more time than money, but I'm willing to spend if it will really pay off.)

One thing I failed to mention: my current rifle is a converted Saiga .223. MOBG is an acceptable level of accuracy for now. I've got my eye on the SIG 556, but that's a little ways down the road...

Thanks,

Jay

[Cavediver]

For my shouldered rounds, like the 223, I use a three-phased process on my 550.

First I tumble, lube (dillons spray, what else?), decap, size and neck size on the dillon (three dies).

Then I tumble to remove the lube, trim to length, clean primer pockets and inside necks.

Then it's back to the Dillon for primer seating (decapper die in stage 1), charging and bullet seating.

That's a lot, I know, but it's is important you trim to length after sizing.

Why do you size and neck size? Doesn't the first sizing take care of that?

Does the tubling work to clean the neck and primer pockets, or is this an additional (hand tool) step? Also, do you trim and chamfer / deburr with hand tools, drill chucked tools, or something else entirely?

Finally, why the decapper in stage one of phase three? Removal of stuck tumbling media?

[Bitswap]

Last question: since I'm only shooting 100-150 rounds of .223 per month, does it make sense to invest in the cool motorized gizmos? While I can afford it if it's the best way to go, I'd rather put the money into more consumables. (AKA: I have more time than money, but I'm willing to spend if it will really pay off.)

I hate to say this... but if your only loading 100-150 a month, the 550 may not be the best solution. It looks like a good single stage will probably serve you better. Using those lock rings I talked about makes changing dies easy and you don't have to adjust them every time you use them.

You can use Goo-Gone to clean your brass instead of tumbling and Imperial Sizing Die wax instead of a spray lube.

Either the Lee 'O' press or Rock Cruncher should suit your needs.

The only electronic gizmo I highly recommend is the Girraud trimmer. Big bucks up front but worth every penny. Trimming and champering necks are a big pita and this trimmer takes away all that pain.

Another gizmo worth mentioing is an electornic powder dispensor. This is good for load development. If not that, an electronic scale and powder trickler... works but takes more time.

You can always find a use for a single stage. It will get you going and give you time to save for a 550 or 650. By then the learning curve on 223's will have flattened out.

[Bitswap]

For my shouldered rounds, like the 223, I use a three-phased process on my 550.

First I tumble, lube (dillons spray, what else?), decap, size and neck size on the dillon (three dies).

Then I tumble to remove the lube, trim to length, clean primer pockets and inside necks.

Then it's back to the Dillon for primer seating (decapper die in stage 1), charging and bullet seating.

That's a lot, I know, but it's is important you trim to length after sizing.

Why do you size and neck size? Doesn't the first sizing take care of that?

Does the tubling work to clean the neck and primer pockets, or is this an additional (hand tool) step? Also, do you trim and chamfer / deburr with hand tools, drill chucked tools, or something else entirely?

Finally, why the decapper in stage one of phase three? Removal of stuck tumbling media?

A standard full length sizing die will size the neck and is all you need to start out. One of the process I do with my brass is to turn the necks so their width is consistent across all of them using a Neck Trimmer. Akin to that is controlling the amount of tension placed on the bullet when seating. With a neck sizing die (uses bushings) you can adjust that tension. This is usually for match prep'ed brass, but I've found my groups are 50% smaller just by turning the necks so I choose to do this. You only need to turn the necks once for new brass.

So my 'body' die only bumps the shoulder of the round and my neck sizer only sizes the necks.

I've found that tumbling does poor job on the inside of the brass or primer pockets. I have a primer pocket cleaner/reamer from Sinclair that squares the inside of the pocket. For the neck, I just swab it with rubbing alchol.

I use a Girraud case trimmer that trims, chamfers and deburrs in nanoseconds. Best tool I've ever purchased.

Yes, the decapper is to remove media that may be stuck in the primer flash holes.

Here's a good site that explains match prep. Yes it's for BMG but applies to 223's as well. The concepts are the same.

[Cavediver]

Excellent information.

Thank you everyone. I think I've got what I need for now. Of course, if you've got a different opinion, it's always welcome!

Bitswap, for what it's worth, I will continue loading an additional 500-1k rounds of 9mm per month, plus another 200+ rounds of .40. I'll chew on this information for a while and see if I think it's worth selling my SDB to make this upgrade. Maybe a solid single stage is all I need until I've got a good handle on the .223 process. I think I'm going to wait a while on that timmer though I understand and love quality tools, but that one's out of range for now.

[Bitswap]

I'll make one more post then shut up, think I said too much already and scared you off...

You'll be fine with a standard 223 die set and manual trimmer which you probably already have and get moa groups at 100 yards. You need to know that when loading shouldered rounds vs. non-shouldered rounds is you need to trim them to length. That is something that will definatly ruin your day. Everything else I do can be tabled as it is really not necessary but only serves to make things consistent and that can come with time. Full length size them, trim them, and go to town. If your accuracy is 'good enough' then stop there and ignore everything I've said. I'm shooting competition and can easily get minute of coyote without all those tricks. Hell, a good trigger probably do more to improve accuracy than anything else...

[J-Ho]

I think the accuracy issue comes down to just what you mean by accurate. I've loaded 1000's of 223's on a Lee turret press and it shoots great. I use it as a single stage press for rifle. I've never put it on paper through a scope though. I shoot iron sights in 3gun matches. At 100 yards (with irons) I have gotten sub MOA groups. I've loaded 10,000's of rounds for pistols on the same little Lee. It does the job. All that being said, when it finally gives up the ghost, I'll go with a Dillon for pistol and most likely a rock chucker for the rifle. I still like single stage presses for rifle(just personal preference) for rifle. I've also looked into a good turret press like a Redding. They seem to be very solid and not priced too bad.

just my $.025

[Cavediver]

I'll make one more post then shut up, think I said too much already and scared you off...

Quite the contrary. I've decided to keep an eye out for a used single stage. If I find one for a good price, I'll buy it. Until then, I'll stick with my existing Lee, putting any of the really difficult brass aside for later processing. I will start with hand tools for trimming, chamfering, pocket cleaning, etc. The last thing I will need is a manual or single stage mounted powder measure.

[Hank Ellis]

I've decided to keep an eye out for a used single stage. If I find one for a good price, I'll buy it. Until then, I'll stick with my existing Lee, putting any of the really difficult brass aside for later processing. I will start with hand tools for trimming, chamfering, pocket cleaning, etc. The last thing I will need is a manual or single stage mounted powder measure.

I also suggest getting this book. "Competition Reloading" by Glen Zediker. This book gets very deep on what it takes to make very accurate ammunition. Read this and you'll know what you need to do and more important, what makes very little difference in accurate ammunition.

Since you aren't looking for minute of bugs butt ammo may I make a few suggestions as to case prep. Get a good trimmer. This is a safety thing not to be skipped. You can skip everything else but don't skip trimming. I've got a Wilson but there are others just as good. But get a good one. Get something for chamfering/deburring. A $12 Wilson tool will get you started. Another required item is a case gauge. This is the bare basics.

Next step up is to get a dedicated chamfering tool to go with your trimmer. The $12 Wilson tool is just fine for knocking the burrs off. From here get a power screwdriver to run the trimmer and chamfer tools. Saves a bunch of time. Then flash hole deburring. It's done once for the life of the case and probably does a lot more for accuracy than you think. Next step is primer pocket uniforming. Finally case neck turning. Few of us really need to go there.

One other thing that you can do for accuracy that doesn't cost anything except time is case segregation. Sort by headstamp, including year if its military. Then start weighing them. You will be very surprised by the weight differences. Sort out the very heavy and very light. I find a happy medium and go + or - 1.0 grain.

Or you can say Hank is a bit anal and scrounge range pickups. Trim it up with a $18 Lee Zip trim and chamfer with an oversized drill bit. Knock the burrs off with 320 sandpaper. Take the same chamfering drill bit to cut out the military crimp. Yes, I've heard somebody at the range actually say this is his .223 brass prep.

[Cavediver]

Since you aren't looking for minute of bugs butt ammo may I make a few suggestions as to case prep. Get a good trimmer. This is a safety thing not to be skipped. You can skip everything else but don't skip trimming. I've got a Wilson but there are others just as good. But get a good one. Get something for chamfering/deburring. A $12 Wilson tool will get you started. Another required item is a case gauge. This is the bare basics.

Thanks Hank.

Case gauge: Dillon, Wilson or JP Enterprise? If I had to guess, I'd say my Saiga has a pretty loose chamber. From what I've read, the Dillon or the Wilson should be fine, but maybe I'm missing something?

The Wilson trimmer looks like a good set-up. If I get the trimmer mounted chamfer tool will I still need the hand-held tool to smooth the outside edge of the neck?

Thanks for the book link as well. While I doubt I'll ever need to load match grade ammo, it looks like a worthwhile read.

[el pres]

When starting out you dont need all the stuff just yet..

I started .223 on just a Dillion but now I size and decap on a Rock Chucker, I found that

the Rock Chucker really lets you get all the way down the brass without the shellplate coming into

play, very conistant sizing !!!

Here's the whole process: tumble and lube cases, size on RC, check lenth of cases and decrimp pockets

with hand bit installed in electric drill. Any case that is over in lenth is tossed to the (if I get a trimmer one day)

pile and everything else is in play. Then they go into the 650 to be loaded and thats it. Sometimes I tumble the

loaded cases after but thats another story..

I use mixed headstamps (police range brass) and get 1/2 MOA out of my JP "all" day long, what else do you need !!

Edited July 8, 2008 by DIRTY CHAMBER

[NC Shooter]

I have reloaded all of my ammo on single stage presses since 1982 and just got a Dillon RL550B for Christmas this past year. I absolutely love the Dillon for loading any and all pistol cartridges BUT I am dissapointed when it comes to rifle reloading on my Dillon and will use it for practise rifle ammo only. It is entirely possible that I have not given it enough trial but I keep going back to my single stage presses for precision accuracy in rifle cartridges. With all of that said if you are not reloading for 600 and/or 1000 yard precision the Dillon will very likely suit your needs for both pistol and rifle reloading. I would still want a single stage press for mounting a collet type bullet puller and other jobs that a Dillon was not meant for (that is just me and my two cents). You will find that the Dillon press has greater mechanical advantage than some other equipment so punching out crimped primers is not an issue.

Regarding case gages, the way it was explained to me by the Dillon people is: Dillon case gages are cut to SAAMI minimum chamber specs. Some other gages are cut to SAAMI maximum cartridge specs, [the SAAMI maximum cartridge spec is tighter].

Good luck

Edited July 8, 2008 by NC Shooter

[Tom D.]

Mostly good info but my take on PRECISION reloading is that unless your are a Master class shooter, shooting bench rest or long range, your time is far better spent on the range working on the fundamentals of marksmanship than trlying to load 'bug hole' ammunition. Should be a given that your rifle is capable of utilizing this 'bug hole' ammo, too or your are REALLY wasting time.

[warpspeed]

IMHO, I'm not sure 150 - 200 rounds a month warrants a reloading set up.

But Bitswap pretty much has it down.

There has been lots of discussion on reloading 223 here so do a search. As for brass prep, there are companies that will do it for you or sell once fired that is already prepped ( deprimed, sized, trimmed, primer pocket reamed ) and ready to load.

[davidwiz]

I have a Rockchucker single stage set up to resize .223 before it goes on the 650. If it is new .223 brass, then I don't bother with the single stage. I'm using the Forster Bench Rest full-length resize die.

If you want to buy "pre prepped" brass, Scharch Manufacturing has really good products and prices.

Edited July 9, 2008 by davidwiz

[Cavediver]

IMHO, I'm not sure 150 - 200 rounds a month warrants a reloading set up.

But Bitswap pretty much has it down.

There has been lots of discussion on reloading 223 here so do a search. As for brass prep, there are companies that will do it for you or sell once fired that is already prepped ( deprimed, sized, trimmed, primer pocket reamed ) and ready to load.

Nope, it probably doesn't. However, if things go well for me I will have a better rifle and a range membership within the next year. I'd like to learn this stuff while I have the time. If it doesn't happen, oh well...

I've been searching and reading for the last two weeks. The original post was a simple question about press quality, and what's good enough for an amateur. I love the fact that it's grown; lots of good info

I did find out something interesting. Dillon case lube works much better than the One-Shot for this application. It's actually pretty easy to resize .223 brass on my small Le single stage. I'm still keeping an eye out for a Rockchucker though.

It's all about the toys...

Thanks to everyone. I appreciate all of the information.

[bufit323]

Or you can say Hank is a bit anal

I would never say that!

Your process is exactly the same as mine (with the exception that I do my trimming with the cheap Lee tool and my power drill). One day I will buy the Giraud.

Just a bit of drift, back to your high end powder dump comment. What have you been looking at to improve the powder drop on your precision ammunition. I think that all the brass prep that I do is very useful, but in the end, if I don't trickle up my powder drop, the uncertainty involved in the 550 powder drop will be a far greater source of uncertainty than case length, case weight, primer depth, etc.

I have been considering upgrading the powder station for this purpose, but have not educated myself sufficiently.

Hope to see you at a match soon, I have been missing lately (darn life is getting in the way of shooting!)

[Hank Ellis]

-snip-

Just a bit of drift, back to your high end powder dump comment. What have you been looking at to improve the powder drop on your precision ammunition. I think that all the brass prep that I do is very useful, but in the end, if I don't trickle up my powder drop, the uncertainty involved in the 550 powder drop will be a far greater source of uncertainty than case length, case weight, primer depth, etc.

I have been considering upgrading the powder station for this purpose, but have not educated myself sufficiently.

I'm looking real hard at the Redding 3BR measure. $130 from Sinclair Intl. It's in the Dillon catalog also. For what we do it should do the trick. Stepping up to a Harrell is $190 and I don't think I'll see any real world improvement. Toss in the adapter from Dillon and I should be good to go.

One wierd thing I've noticed about rifle cartridges. Exact powder drops doesn't effect accuracy all that much. It was mentioned in the Competition Reloading book but I thought is was BS. Looking at the hits from the last ladder test I had 5 shots from 23.4gr to 24.2gr in .2 increments at 200yd. Vertical group is .71". Horizontal group is 1.63" totally ignoring any windage compensation at the bench. From what I've gathered going +- a couple tenths in powder drop isn't going to affect accuracy all that much. What I'm going for in the upper end measure is to speed up the reloading process because I'm hand trickling each load as I don't trust the Dillon measure to do the job. Seach the forum and you'll find several posts where the Dillon measure has given problems in dropping long stick powders.

Hope to see you at a match soon, I have been missing lately (darn life is getting in the way of shooting!)

Naw. Go ahead and stay away. Since you've been gone I've taken HOA in Production once.

Or you can say Hank is a bit anal

I would never say that!

Yeah, go ahead. You can say it. It's OK. Part of what I do for a living. Keeping those loose collections of spare parts in rough formation that want to destroy itself as soon as you start it (helicopters) makes you slightly paranoid and anal retentive. Excuse me but I feel the need to pick the pebbles out of my tires.