Nick Weidhaas Posted June 29, 2003 Share Posted June 29, 2003 Can someone tell me which is more popular in 3 gun. Also, the pros and cons of each mfg./design would be appreciated. Thanks, Nick- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glockster96 Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 Hi Nick. Most of the shooters at our club use Benellis. Several of us previously had Remington 1100s, but there was LOTS of reliability problems with them. The Benellis recoil a little harder due to the action type, but in my experience they have been absolutely reliable (now having said that mine will take a big ol' dump next match.) There are a couple of shooters who still use 11-87s, but I haven't been impressed with their reliabilitiy either. Other shotguns seen: Winchester SX2, Browning Gold, several different pump actions. Good luck and HTH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 I've shot an 11-87 for 3 years in IPSC with ZERO reliability problems. I've had it since 1993 and it has always run. I've seen Benellis crap out. They kick harder and cost more and have a little button on the side of the receiver to release the bolt. You can't put a loading gate on them either. Oh.... they do cycle faster though...LMAO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 Thats one of the beauties of the Benelli, it doesn't need a "speed feed", or easy loader as the carrier doesn't lock up unless you hit the secret button or "speed feed" like the good old Remington. If anyone can honestly say that the notice recoil AFTER the "beep", they are very exceptional shooters. The only thing I can remember after the beep is usualy about half my plan. Both Shotguns are good for 3-gun and each has it's strengths and weaknesses, try to shoot both and see wich one you like. In general though if you bring a Remington bring some spare parts, If you have them with you it will never break! This has worked for my Benellis so far! KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xsrdx Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 This has worked for my Benellis so far! Kurt runs a SGN about as well as anybody I've seen at a major match. Todd Salmon and Blane West can win a few shotgun stages as well - in limited or "tactical", the Eye-Talian gun seems to be the ticket. I think you'll find most top 10 3 gunners that DON'T get free gear from sponsors will be running the Benelli. The Remington is soft shooting but heavier, the Benelli is light but recoils a bit harder. Go figure. Both have won matches. SX2 verdict is still out IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironman Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 I was told the gun to get was the Benelli, so I did. I had a little work done to it which included a new butt pad. I have been very happy with the shotgun and I have never noticed the "hard" or "heavy" recoil from it that people talk about. My vote goes to Benelli. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xsrdx Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 I have never noticed the "hard" or "heavy" recoil from it that people talk about. Notably, although you may or may not fit this description, shooters of large stature - over maybe 200ish - tend not to notice much of the Benelli recoil. While an XL like Kurt, for instance, may not notice recoil after the buzzer, it might be a problem for an S/XS female shooting slugs. For 3 gun, most shooters pick the "tactical" slug loads to reduce the hit somewhat, but the majority of modern 3 gun shotgunning is with birdshot that doesn't recoil much anyway. Shooting 71/2 low brass all day is pretty painless, even for skinny folks shooting the flyweight Benelli. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironman Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 xsrdx, I am over 200 LBS so your point is well taken. I have been shooting shotgun at clays for years and usually hit opening day of dove season so to me guns that kick start at 30-06 and go up from there. I am not the macho man and use any form of recoil reduction that is available. You make a good point for the smaller shooters. That being said my 14 year son thought the Benelli kicked less than the 870 or the 1300 pump I have been letting him use to shoot clays with. Maybe it is just because it is dad's newest gun... Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 I am over 400 lbs. and I definitely notice the additional recoil from a Benelli because I don't move at all when I shoot, so my body absorbs 100% of the recoil. You small guys don't notice that your body moves when you shoot them. Try shooting one with your back & shooting shoulder against a wall or telephone pole and you'll see what I mean. Most people who dismiss the reliability of the Remington guns do not have access to someone who knows how to make them run. Some smiths can make them cycle faster than a Benelli (according to some Benelli factory reps who tried to buy some of ours to see what was inside), or at least allow the shooter to fire them faster and still hit targets. In terms of box stock guns, the Benelli may have an advantage in performance. But . . . If you can get a Remington built buy a really good smith, you will either use your Benelli for a trunk gun or sell it. I would recommend Darrel Stonebraker (Darrel's Custom Firearms, Cayuga, IN 765/492-3939) as the ultimate builder of "the little black shotgun," but he no longer has time to do much smithing work. But you could try. If you shoot one of his guns, you won't want anything else, but good luck finding a used one for sale! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 Wow, I must be an exceptional shooter because I can sure feel the difference, even after the beeper. I also disagree with the statement that most of the top 10 3gunners who aren't sponsored use Benellis. Certainly a lot do, including Voigt. But a lot don't. I could be wrong but I am unaware of any Remington shooting sponsorships in 3 gun, with the possible exception of the Competition Master himself, Kyle. I don't believe Tony Holmes, Bruce Piatt, Jerry Miculek, Jake Kempton, or Rob Leatham get any help/support from Remington, and that's a good set of shooters who rely on Remingtons. I've seen plenty of both models break, including my own 1187, which is long on the tooth. But I prefer it to the Benellis. I can get a better trigger (not that big a deal on a shotgun). It is less ammo finicky. It kicks less. And I don't get my thumb jammed in the loading gate EVER, unlike with my Benelli. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironman Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 Good point Kelly... the thumb thing. Ouch. Much worse than the recoil. I gotta get somebody to fix that sooner than later. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 Well well well, looks like we got us a little debate going on here!!! First off Kelly is an exceptional shooter: He is down right special! So special he got to ride the "short bus" just like me!!!! Now down to business! Yep Benellis bite the thumb unless you contour the lifter. Remington needs a speed feed. It takes less time to contour the lifter than it does fit a sped feed and out side of a little wear on the old Dremel, contouring doesn't cost anything. Also a contoured lifter doesn't stick out of the bottom of the gun. Better trigger on the Remington? this must be after custom work right? Well if thats the case I have done quite a few Benelli triggers down to 3 lbs CRISP, just like a good Remington! Custom Remingtons that cycle faster? That may be, but lets look at custom Benellies. Bevin Grams and Benny Hill both have been playing around with lightened bolt carriers for the Benelli. I got one from Benny at the S.E. shotgun championships and when I got home I went to town on it. The bolt started at 12 ounces, Benny got 3 ounces off of it, I got another ounce and a half for a total of 4.5 ounces off the weight of the original. Lets talk fast cycling!! I was testing it today and decided to see just where it would over run the gun. I started the timer, then put a stick through the trigger guard and faned my nice light trigger with the stick. I held the gun in an under arm position and boy did it rock me! Oh yea, splits ran in the .13s and .12s. Emptied the gun, all 11 rounds 3 times and it never once followed!!! With the lightened carrier there is about a 1/3 less muzzle rise and much faster back on target! Benellis finicky? Mine are not...but I have worked on many that were. I can usually cure them but it can be a real pain. I think I would almost agree with Kelly on this point! Especially a stock gun! As for parts breakage... For Benellis I have seen a cam pin (one) break, a firing pin(one) break and a bolt handle come out durring firing. This is for all Benellis I have seen. Remington wise I have probably replace a full dry wall bucket of the small parts and a good size bin of bigger parts, to include barrels, frames, all manor of stocks, and bolts, not to mention the bucket of extractors which I consider a 2000 round part any more. Even someone who knows how to make a Remington run doesn't know how to keep them from breaking parts. Shattered gas rings anyone? I have seen both guns jam, neither more than the other, so I guess its a toss up. Benellis kick more? Yes they do, not much ( personal and subjective) but they do.That is the price you pay to have a shotgun which is 2 pounds lighter and MUCH faster to index target to target. As a recoil aside I was chronographing loads to day out of the old 21 inch barreled Benelli and proffer this for your thoughts, Most low recoil slugs averaged 1150-1200 fps. Now remember that is for a 1 ounce payload. 3 dram federal loads went 1115-1137fps with a 1 1/8 ounce payload. To put this in perspective the slugs power factor at 1200 is 525. The power factor for the low brass 7 1/2 trap load (Federal) at 1137 is 559. The slug would actually recoil less than the "trap"load, but just ask anyone, those slugs KICK!!!! The real up side to Remington is that they now support our sport!! they have given several Competition Masters as prizes and they are out in the field even compeating themselves. What has Benelli done for our sport? Outside of being extreamly dificult to deal with.... NOTHING! KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KyleL Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 Kurt, Hey let me know if you need a Comp Master.... I think it is great that Remington is supporting our sport. I actually tried a Benelli as well, it didn't work when it was brand new so I sent it back. It took 6 months and several phone calls to get it back. Remington has finally stepped up, I think we will see even more from them in the future. Oh and guess where it is made? USA ADIOS KyleL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 Judging by recent USPSA 3 gun nationals, I'd say Remington 1100 and 1187 constitute 60%, Benelli M1 39%, others 1%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 Just to muddy the waters, my 1st generation limited class Winchester Super X2 definitely jammed when brand new but seems to run 100% now (lock the bolt back for a week or two when new). Funny, S&B slugs ran 100%, it was Winchester traditional slugs that jammed it. It kicks about the same as an 1100/1187 which you'd expect from a gas gun. Hadn't though of or tried the under-arm-stick-through-trigger-gaurd approach for splits. Viable limited platform? Yes, certainly. Competitive at the highest levels? Dunno. I will not even say on a local level b/c I have not shot it enough in competition to fairly comment. 3 indoor matches and one outdoor barely constitute break in. BTW, I think Phil Strader has one or two of the new Remington Competition Masters for sale through www.shooters-paradise.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 Kyle: This isn't really shotgun related but it is Benelli related. Just when they ( benelli ) was changing over their computer program for service, I.E. new guns that didn't work, or repair. They lost a whole slew of whos gun was whos. Yours could have been one of these....... but wait thats not all! at the time I had been doing warranty work for them and they droped alll warranty out side of the main Benelli U.S.A. facility. I had a bolt that had been sent in for replacement and I got it back without replacement. Mean while My name and home phone # ended up in their templet in the new computer program. Any time a gun shop sent in a gun for warranty and didn't include a name and just had a shop name on the warranty info, my name and # were automatically supplied. I would get some very nasty calls from Benelli about "not paying for service and when are you going to send money for the return of your shotgun" IT TOOK THEM 3 YEARS TO CORRECT THIS MINOR PROBLEM!!!! A Blue Rhino AAARGH!!!! KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 Jake Kempton did a trigger job on my Remington. It's a crisp 1.5 lbs. I don't think triggers matter that much with shotguns but it sure is nice. As for the cycling speed issue. It means little to me. I'm not superspeedy but I ain't slow either and I have not outrun either model when shooting in a match or in practice for that matter. And I have never seen any of the big dogs outrun either model. I'm very happy that remington has jumped into the 3 gun market and I plan to replace my old 1187 with a Competition Master. Finally, I disagree (my favorite pastime with Kurt) about faster indexing. It's a light/heavy gun preference. Some like light, some like heavy. I like heavy. Light guns are too herky jerky (for me). Heavy shotguns (for me) just glide to the next target and don't overswing. And finally if Kurt likes Benellis, I just have to go with the Remington Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 Kelly: Cycle speed doesn't mean much to me either. I have never over run any shotgun!, but I did see Benny Hill over run his once. As for light or heavy all I can say is if it aint light it may as well be heavy. I never said I didn't like Remington and I never said I liked Benelli, I just said I use Benelli. What I realy like was designed in the late 70s and then never built. It had dual mag tubes side by side with a single barrel on top with a straight line recoil stock. It was slightly on the heavy side at 9 pounds and for a 21 inch barrel it held 18 rounds. KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xsrdx Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 Judging by recent USPSA 3 gun nationals, I'd say Remington 1100 and 1187 constitute 60%, Benelli M1 39%, others 1% Was that true across divisions though? I *think* (there I go again) the gas guns are more popular in open, while the M1's are overrepresented in the limited division. The Benellis certainly seem more popular at major "tactical" non-USPSA matches, at least in the past. Just an impression, YMMV and it's been over a year since I've been to a national level 3 gun anyway. Clearly either platform will get the job done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 For a open gun I like the Rem. comp. master. For tactical I will always use my Benelli with it I have won a few matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grim death Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 About 2-3 months ago I asked the same question about what shotgun to go with and why.Kurt gave me some very helpful insight. I have hunted and shot many shotgun matches but was new to three gun and did not know what to look for. All the points that have been brought up are valide but I wanted a gun that would help me and not just one the top shooters had.( Most of them could shot a rubber band gun @ 95%)I went to GRAMS ENG. and Beven explained as much as he could on what I needed to look for in a shotgun.That alone made a hugh difference.So my 2 cents is this- talk to someone like Beven Grams or Bennie Hill and ask what is important to look for in the gun and try a couple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToddS Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 I've been shooting Benelli shotguns exclusively for several years. They're great shotguns. To date, the company has done nothing that I'm aware of to support the tactical or action shotgun sports.........., nothing. These sports have done a great deal for Benelli USA in getting notoriety for the guns and selling them to law enforcement, their biggest market. Remington has done a good thing with the Comp Master. It's a heavier shotgun but very managable. For anyone who is recoil sensitive, I would recommend it over a Benelli. Browning works well for Cooley, but everyone else I know has reliability problems. To any new shooter just buying a shotgun for 3-Gun, I would recommend the Remington Comp Master just for the fact that they are made in the USA and they have started supporting our sport, not just skeet, trap, and clays. They are ready to shoot right out of the box. Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 Todd: how did you get yor portrait posted; all thats missing is axel! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToddS Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 There was no BAD DOG pic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Just a quick up date. I now have info on an other Benelli "break" Ed Rhoads had his shell stop roll pin break and it just kept spitting out the shells he would load at the Nationals. Today mine changed to a solid pin ala Winchester model 12...matter of fact thats where the part came from! 1.5 pound trigger pull??? that might explain the shotgun only stage at S.M.M.3-G!!!! I would like to have that just because Kelly does, but I can't get a Benelli that light! Hat,s off to Jake!!! KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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