Chris Keen Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 Just wondering what your thoughts are on Palm Scoring for this years NATIONALS. I was recently perusing the Nationals web-page over at USPSA.org and noticed that they intend to use it in Tulsa this year, in conjunction with a leader-board similar to how they show the leaders in golf. The idea is to have more frequent updates, and display the results on monitors in / around the vendors tent. I have no personal experience with palm scoring ... I've never seen it, nor have I been to a match that used it. Just curious. How accurate is it ? Will this system use barcodes on score-sheets ? What about scoring discrepencies ? How easy will they be to catch, and fix ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisa006 Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 The Area 7 used it and it seemed great. You get a paper backup and they kept one also incase there is a problem. They score you with the palm, then read off the palm and mark a paper which you sign. It goes very fast and smooth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 There are a few good thread on Palm scoring. They are a good read and probably cover much of your questions. There is no need for bar code...nor score sheets, for that matter. The scores go right into the Palm unit on each stage, then they are electronically transferred to a Master palm (think of this like picking up score sheets on each stage). Then, from the Master, they transfer right into the match computer. Easy data collect and data input. The shooter will likely get a "paper copy" of their score sheet for their records. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 Here's a link which describes what it is and how it worked at Area 7 match five years ago. I think the point is to not have any score sheets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 * How accurate is it ? Very * Will this system use barcodes on score-sheets ? No. There won't even be scoresheets. * What about scoring discrepencies ? How easy will they be to catch, and fix ? Hit totals (A/B/C/D/M/NS/PROC) are recorded along with shooter initials, RO initials, and time of day on a paper log. The competitor gets a carbonless copy for their records. In the event of any discrepancy, the paper copy is considered the official one. The paper copy also protects us in the event a Palm fails (or is dropped on a rock) before the scores are beamed to the master Palm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted June 16, 2008 Author Share Posted June 16, 2008 Will the paper copy show hits per target, or just totals? I always like to see what I got on each target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTOSHootr Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 The Palms are just as accurate as paper, since as with paper, the score keeper is inputing all the data. I don't know about the barcode stuff. Catching and fixing discrepencies is probably easier than paper. Since each stage is specifically programmed into the Palm, for instance, if there's five steel and eight paper on a stage, the Palm will prompt you for exactly that. If you forgot to enter the time, skipped a target, or put down too many hits, it prompts you for corrections as well. Before each shooter's score for a stage is finalized you see a complete spread of all the hits for each target, total hits, any penalties, the time, and the resulting output of the hit factor. So for the shooter checking their hits after a stage, you see more data, making it is easier to look it over, sign the sheet, and walk away with confidence that the scoring will be correctly posted. Having shot and worked matches with both Palm and paper for a few years, I prefer Palm, both as a scorer and competitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted June 16, 2008 Author Share Posted June 16, 2008 It's easy to verify that the RO on the timer calls out the correct scores, because you (as the shooter) can visually see your hits, and audibly you can hear what the RO is calling out. But you have to have a little blind faith that the scores that were yelled out are being transcribed EXACTLY onto paper (or in this case Palm) by the RO on the clipboard (or in this case Palm). I guess with either method you can have the same problems. Just wondering if there are more slip-ups with the Palm system of scoring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moverfive Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 It's easy to verify that the RO on the timer calls out the correct scores, because you (as the shooter) can visually see your hits, and audibly you can hear what the RO is calling out. But you have to have a little blind faith that the scores that were yelled out are being transcribed EXACTLY onto paper (or in this case Palm) by the RO on the clipboard (or in this case Palm). I guess with either method you can have the same problems. Just wondering if there are more slip-ups with the Palm system of scoring. The details of the scoring for each target is within the Palm for each stage and for each shooter. So if you want to verify the scoring details for each target, you can easily do that......and thus you should then agree with the resulting summary counts the paper copy. In fact, there are probably less slip-ups with the Palm. Because now the scorekeeper doesn't have to decide if that "4" is a "9" or something else. It also eliminates many of the 'fat-fingered' errors that could occur after the scorekeeper has entered his 500th score of the day. And for those that haven't used or seen the Palm scoring program - it is a Scorekeeper's dream. As we tell folks that see it for the first time, I can have final results posted within 15 minutes of the last shot fired. It is that quick! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 Will the paper copy show hits per target, or just totals? Totals, although the RO will show you the Palm and you can see the hits per target - that level of detail doesn't go down on the paper verification copy. The two errors to watch out for as a competitor: #1: Make sure you are you. Your name and competitor number will be at the top of the display. This should not be a problem at the nationals since we will be using the squadding in the Palm to pick you by name. #2: Time entry. Hits must "total correctly", however, there is no way the system can validate the time entry. The program will prompt the RO if you hit factor is over 20 (which generally means a missed decimal place or digit). Make sure you agree with the time before you sign the paper summary. The results stations will allow you to get a single screen detail report, so it should be very easy to check your paper slips against the reported scores. We will have interim results at the nationals up no less frequently than once every two hours, however, I am hoping we can get them up on an hourly basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 I guess with either method you can have the same problems. Just wondering if there are more slip-ups with the Palm system of scoring. In fact, there are probably less slip-ups with the Palm. Because now the scorekeeper doesn't have to decide if that "4" is a "9" or something else. It also eliminates many of the 'fat-fingered' errors that could occur after the scorekeeper has entered his 500th score of the day. What about the guy entering scores on the Palm. Can he be fat-fingered? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 I can have final results posted within 15 minutes of the last shot fired. It is that quick! You must still be printing result to paper. If you post electronically, you should be able to get this down to about 5 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTOSHootr Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 I guess with either method you can have the same problems. Just wondering if there are more slip-ups with the Palm system of scoring. In fact, there are probably less slip-ups with the Palm. Because now the scorekeeper doesn't have to decide if that "4" is a "9" or something else. It also eliminates many of the 'fat-fingered' errors that could occur after the scorekeeper has entered his 500th score of the day. What about the guy entering scores on the Palm. Can he be fat-fingered? Finger obesity is taken out of the equation by the plastic stylus you use with the Palms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 If a competitor wanted to keep up with the system which Palm should he purchase and is there a license for software to view it? My phone is Windows based and I have Excel, Word and plain text which I assume won't do me any good for an IR file from the Palm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maineshootah Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 If a competitor wanted to keep up with the system which Palm should he purchase and is there a license for software to view it?My phone is Windows based and I have Excel, Word and plain text which I assume won't do me any good for an IR file from the Palm? THAT is a whole other issue... I do not believe that the company will license individual users, only clubs, and you would have to have your Palm tied to the master for the match which is tied to the club..... Rob can tell you more about this. As far as using them in a match, they work great, easy to score, easy to review and it moves the shooters along quick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 Will the individual shooter version of the Palm Scoring System be made available? What Palms will work? The older battery operatoed B&W ones? (I know that mine is almost IMPOSSIBLE to see in daylight, it is an M130 color.) Where can shooters get them? and for how much? Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adweisbe Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 (edited) I doubt an individual shooter version will be made available that will mesh at matches. The client palms (not master) are linked to an individual stage at a match and stay with that stage. They are programmed with the exact number and type of targets in advance. I have a bit of experience scoring on the palm (not administering a match) and I am very impressed with it. I have never heard of it corrupting or losing information (a big deal as a software engineer) and it exposes all the information and input to the scorer in a streamlined process that you can go back and correct easily. If you score the stage the same way every time it is possible to look at the palm and see exactly what hits were scored on a specific paper target. Steel is scored as a total so you can't tell which specific steel was left up. #1: Make sure you are you. Your name and competitor number will be at the top of the display. This should not be a problem at the nationals since we will be using the squadding in the Palm to pick you by name. I ran into this once. I entered the score under the wrong shooter number. We had to copy the results onto a target and then enter them manually under the correct shooters number. Is there a shortcut? Edited June 16, 2008 by adweisbe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moverfive Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 I can have final results posted within 15 minutes of the last shot fired. It is that quick! You must still be printing result to paper. If you post electronically, you should be able to get this down to about 5 minutes. Nope.....I just make sure I give myself enough time to fire up the computer and such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 A few points - The battery operated Palm IIxe works great; about $20-$25 on ebay. The software costs a bit more than the Palms All Palms have all stages defined. When I run a match, I inactivate all but one stage on each Palm so that there is no chance a Palm will be set to the incorrect stage (one less menu item for scorekeepers to worry about). There is an individual version available - see www.autoscoringsystems.com If you have a score you need to enter manually and already have totals, hit TS (target summary), then you can proceed directly to entering hit totals - useful if you have entered a score on the incorrect shooter. You can remove an existing score, but I protect this with an admin password and have stats staff come and do it for the RO - to avoid having RO's trying to figure out dangerous functionality they rarely have cause to learn when running a stage. If an RO is comfortable enough to deal with this, I'll give him the password for this feature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EZ Bagger Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 There is nothing preventing anyone from buying the software (other than it's completely ridiculous price) and using it to keep track of their (and their friends and competitors) scores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OpnBlstr Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 If a competitor wanted to keep up with the system which Palm should he purchase and is there a license for software to view it?My phone is Windows based and I have Excel, Word and plain text which I assume won't do me any good for an IR file from the Palm? There is an open 802.11 wireless system that will be available both in the USSA main lodge as well as the vendor tent. I'm keeping it as generic as possible so any devices can connect. If you have a notebook computer running pretty much any browser you will be able to easily connect to the system and view both the leaderboard and your individual scores. Individual scores DO show how many A's, B's, etc as well as hit factor and a few other tidbits of info. If you do not have your own computer (or iPhone - I tested it and it works great!) there will be several score stations set up for competitors to check their results. Rob has done an excellent job with his leaderboard / score viewing software system and I'm sure it will get even better in the future! We will be using it in our next few local matches here at USSA. Note, this open wireless system ONLY connects to a closed network - no Internet connection is currently planned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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