Flipper Targets at "BIG" matches.

[Chuck Anderson]

For me if I'm going to a local match and the clays are inconsistent or the RO blows a call I'm going to be a lot less annoyed than if I spend several hundred to a thousand to go to a major match.

[3GunF1Guy]

The more the better.

+1

More is better and especially if shooters do not do the reset. Let's go one better and even have some traps throwing clays. Big matches can afford things that little matches can not.

+10

[3GunF1Guy]

I really enjoy shooting them, and nothing beats the thrill of multiple flipper clays in the air at the same time. However, flying clays are too difficult to score fairly. If the RO makes a bad call on whether a clay was broken/chipped/dusted, the competitor has no recourse, and the penalty/lost points are significant under both IMGA and IPSC rules. Its not just the RO calls either - even "real" clay traps can cause problems such as prematurely thrown birds (happened to me at RM3G07) or broken birds (which should require the entire stage to be reshot, but mostly ROs give the shooter the hit anyway). I think they are great for local "fun" shoots, but flying clay bird targets should be avoided entirely at big matches.

I have to disagree with the difficulty to score. About a bazilloin clays are thrown every year at the Grand and only very few people have something to say about the scoring or the hit not being seen. We are for the most part standing closer tho the clays when trown off a flipper, so it should be easyier for us to see the hits than from behind a 27yd line.

Scott

[Chris]

I have to disagree with the difficulty to score. About a bazilloin clays are thrown every year at the Grand and only very few people have something to say about the scoring or the hit not being seen. We are for the most part standing closer tho the clays when trown off a flipper, so it should be easyier for us to see the hits than from behind a 27yd line.

Scott

Can you see a single BB hole in a clay that is on a post at 10-15 yards? I can't and I'm pretty positive an RO who is looking at a flying clay isn't going to see that golden BB hole when the thing is 20 feet in the air.

[D.Hayden]

A clay flying from a trap machine.. is very smooth, seeing the bird move from that flight is easy to detect. A bird off a flipper is out of control form the start, there's no comparison.

Again, I like them, but they should always be non-penalty mikes. For the most part, you can see the hits.

But anohter big problem is pre-breakage.

At the X3 match.. one of the stages had 4 single flyers. I think it was the rule more than the exception, that at least one of the birds came up broken. I'm not really sure why, but it was bad.

Can you really afford all that time for reshoots?

[bigbrowndog]

flying clays and flipping clays are to different birds, pardon the pun.

trapr

[Religious Shooter]

I think the issue is not the fun value in the large matches, but rather the consistency of the throws as well as the RO calling / not calling hits.

I think the issue is that people who are against the flippers are putting more weight on the "competition" aspect of a match than just plain having fun.

[maineshootah]

I think the issue is not the fun value in the large matches, but rather the consistency of the throws as well as the RO calling / not calling hits.

I think the issue is that people who are against the flippers are putting more weight on the "competition" aspect of a match than just plain having fun.

Well, that in my humble opinion is what a major match is for.. How I stack up against all others.

Local matches are for trying new things, testing out gear, and getting ready for major matches.

I want to have fun, but as Lawman put it, after spending multiple thousands with flights, hotel, gas car rental, ammo, registration... I want some consistency in how the RO's score as well, and flippers can add some ambiguity to the whole scoring process.

I still love 'em though.

[cksh8me]

RO's have missed the call on a bird on more than one occasion. They've missed some calls on LR steel too. Have you ever seen the baseball team manager get thrown out because he was mad at a bad call? That's money we shoot for fun. Winning a rifle would be real cool but for the masses it's more important the match be fun than perfect.

[J-Ho]

How is the inconsistancy of a flipper any bigger detriment to competition than a big gust of wind on a golf couse?

[el pres]

I just shot the Ruby Mountain 3gun, local northern Nevada anual match and they love

flippers, 2-6 poppers with 2 birds "each" on "every stage", and some stages you shoot twice !!!

They are good fun and flying things are really a shotgun skill that should be tested but its the inconsistancies.

At a match like that you see it all, birds go over your head, they go in unpredicted directions, but best of all is

the ones that for some reason go only 4ft of the ground when your muzzle is already pointing 30 ft up.

I've had instances where I could clearly see a puff and a puff and the whole gallery said that the centers were

punched out but the R.O. says no ??? Keep em but right now the penalties are too severe.. 10 sec. for a

miss and 5 more for going empty for a FTE on a 25 sec. stage is too severe !!!

[Religious Shooter]

I want to have fun, but as Lawman put it, after spending multiple thousands with flights, hotel, gas car rental, ammo, registration... I want some consistency in how the RO's score as well, and flippers can add some ambiguity to the whole scoring process.

Sure we all want consistency. But if you look at what happens at 3 gun matches... it isn't very consistent.

It's been said before and I guess I'll say it again...

Take a look at long range steel. Look at the inconsistencies that are present in that target system. Some of the inconsistencies and problems involved:

1. Wind. Wind doesn't stay consistent. It's fairly common to have different wind conditions from squad to squad.

2. The speed of the RO in calling the hits. You go from RO to RO there can be difference in the speed of the call. The faster the call the faster your time is.

3. RO doesn't make the correct call.

4. Targets can vary in appearance... due to 1) paint(or lack of it), 2) differing shadow conditions as the day goes on and 3) the background earth get's f'd up as more shooters shoot the target.

Are we in agreement that long range steel also isn't 100% fair? Do some of you not want this target in big matches as well?

[el pres]

I want to have fun, but as Lawman put it, after spending multiple thousands with flights, hotel, gas car rental, ammo, registration... I want some consistency in how the RO's score as well, and flippers can add some ambiguity to the whole scoring process.

Sure we all want consistency. But if you look at what happens at 3 gun matches... it isn't very consistent.

It's been said before and I guess I'll say it again...

Take a look at long range steel. Look at the inconsistencies that are present in that target system. Some of the inconsistencies and problems involved:

1. Wind. Wind doesn't stay consistent. It's fairly common to have different wind conditions from squad to squad.

2. The speed of the RO in calling the hits. You go from RO to RO there can be difference in the speed of the call. The faster the call the faster your time is.

3. RO doesn't make the correct call.

4. Targets can vary in appearance... due to 1) paint(or lack of it), 2) differing shadow conditions as the day goes on and 3) the background earth get's f'd up as more shooters shoot the target.

Are we in agreement that long range steel also isn't 100% fair? Do some of you not want this target in big matches as well?

I'm all for having nature (wind, rain, snow, etc..) effect the game but the flippers dont fly crazy because of wind, they

fly crazy because a different person sets it up everytime in slightly a different place on the pad. Or the foam is wearing

down during the match, or someone squeezed the two birds together too hard and they dont seperate, ok the last one

is a bonus but you get where I'm going !!

[Religious Shooter]

I'm all for having nature (wind, rain, snow, etc..) effect the game but the flippers dont fly crazy because of wind, they

fly crazy because a different person sets it up everytime in slightly a different place on the pad. Or the foam is wearing

down during the match, or someone squeezed the two birds together too hard and they dont seperate, ok the last one

is a bonus but you get where I'm going !!

Flippers do fly crazy because of the wind.

That's part of the fun!!!

[ShooterSteve]

I'm not very good at the moving birds, but I think it's a lot of fun and challenging to shoot the flippers. I do prefer the scoring method of counting them as disappearing targets, so you must engage them, but not penalizing the miss. The bonus points are cool for hitting them, but it's pretty tough to hammer someone for missing when you are not allowed to make that shot due to time restraints (time of flight). Like others said, it won't matter as much to the good shooters as they will clean the stage anyway. I stink at them but I say "Bring them on! Let's shoot and have a good time!!"

[cksh8me]

Dirty I shot Elko with you and the following week shot the Piru match. Sometimes I got the benefit of broken birds sometimes I got hammered by the way they flew.

The fact that they don't fly the same for everybody makes them the same for everybody.

[el pres]

The fact that they don't fly the same for everybody makes them the same for everybody.

Well thats right ! I just think that the penalties are too high, although if I shot birds better

I might be saying something else !!

Peter..

[3GunF1Guy]

Having just shot a 400 bird sporting clays match I can tell for a 100% certainty that not all bird fly the same. When the wind blows you still have to shoot them even though the clays are in a different place and at a different speed. We shot one club that I swear made me really nervous. The wind was blowing so hard sometimes that you would break the 180 to shoot the birds. I say just remember birds do not fly the same and have fun shooting them!! I say it is a skill of shooting flying clays not of having all targets presented the same.

Scott