Topping Off Mag

[OttoBon100]

I shot IDPA tonight for the first time. On one stage I took a penalty for not "topping off" my mag. I don't understand this one. Help?

[ErikW]

They want you to start at full capacity to avoid gaming by going to slide lock at a more opportune moment. Why they just didn't fix you up at the start, I don't know.

[Duane Thomas]

IDPA rules state that, when starting the stage, you must have the gun loaded to its maximum capacity, up to the max allowable in that division. In Stock Service Revolver this is six rounds, in Custom Defensive Pistol it's nine (eight in the magazine, one in the chamber), and in Enhanced Service Pistol and Stock Service Pistol it's 11 (ten in the magazine, one in the chamber). What you did, I would assume, was stick your magazine in the gun, rack a round into the chamber, and leave it at that, which left the mag in the gun down one round.

What you need to do is insert a loaded mag into the gun, rack the slide to load the chamber, drop the hammer or flip on the safety (if necessary), pop the mag out of the gun, then insert a mag loaded to the allowable limit (or fewer, if the mag doesn't hold that many - example, you're firing an Officer's ACP with 6-shot mag in CDP) before holstering. Most people have a "Barney mag" (for Barney Fife and his "one bullet," natch) they use specifically for chamber loading.

[OttoBon100]

Thank you! I am pleased with my first time. This one just puzzled me.

[vluc]

I would not have penalized a new shooter for that...would have instructed him/her on what it means. Then if they did it again....

[vincent]

The complete text of rule #14 is:

"14. Pistols must start from mechanical condition of readiness appropriate to their design. In general, single-action autos will start cocked and locked (ESP & CDP), double-action autos (SSP) will start hammer-down and locked or unlocked. However, unusual designs may be started in other ways. Selective double-action autos may start cocked and locked or hammer down. Autoloaders MUST begin any Vickers Count string of fire requiring a re-load with the pistol loaded to maximum capacity or the maximum capacity allowed in that division. In the case of SSP division, this will be 11 rounds total." (underlining added)

This means that you really don't have to start EVERY stage topped off. However since it is best to only have one routine at the line to avoid mistakes, a good rule of thumb is to always top off. K.I.S.S.

The other issue that topping off also relates too is that a shooter must complete the entire match with the same designated magazine capacity. So for example if you want to shoot CDP with 8 round magazines, you have to shoot 8+1 the entire match. You can't shoot a 7 rounder on a stage to gain an advantage. Many large matches make the shooter state their magazine capacity as part of the score sheet or entry form for this reason.

[Tree Rat]

What you need to do is insert a loaded mag into the gun, rack the slide to load the chamber, drop the hammer or flip on the safety (if necessary)........

That's safety on, de-cock if equiped with such capability, or finger off the trigger.............not drop the hammer.

Dropping the hammer is performed only after you have shown clear.

TR

[sv45]

On the rules about topping off, only on a vickers with a reload. What if there is a stage like a bill drill, do you have to top off and count six? the last match was a bill drill where only "0s" counted, everyone loaded to full and counted the shots. I loaded only six and blasted away, when I was done the RO looked at me like I was gaming. Was this wrong?

erik

[ErikW]

You've got to top off everywhere but a Limited Vickers stage.

Edited June 17, 2003 by Erik Warren

[Nik Habicht]

Erik,

Is the Little Green Book different from the original Little Red Book in this respect? The only requirement I could find was to top off on every stage requiring a reload. No reload required ---- it's up to you.

[ErikW]

I've never read a little book of any color, just the little web site online rules.

[Mark Perez]

On the rules about topping off, only on a vickers with a reload.  What if there is a stage like a bill drill, do you have to top off and count six?  the last match was a bill drill where only "0s" counted,  everyone loaded to full and counted the shots.  I loaded only six and blasted away, when I was done the RO looked at me like I was gaming.  Was this wrong?

erik

for a 6 round string - you may load the 6 rounds only if you wish.

I don't have enough confidence in my reloads lately- so I would do that string of fire with at least 10 in the mag - just in case.

[tightloop]

mark

The Bill Drill is a Limited Vickers scored drill, only 6 rounds can be fired. Doesn't matter how many you load.

[Duane Thomas]

That's safety on, de-cock if equiped with such capability, or finger off the trigger.............not drop the hammer.

Sorry. That's what I meant to say.

[Duane Thomas]

I've never read a little book of any color, just the little web site online rules.

Erik,

The original IDPA Rule Book had a red cover, so people called it the Little Red Book. The current rule book - the contents of which are on the IDPA website - is the Little Green Book.

[Mayonaise]

mark

The Bill Drill is a Limited Vickers scored drill, only 6 rounds can be fired. Doesn't matter how many you load.

Shooters should be forced to used full capacity magazine even in limited vickers drills like the Bill Drill. For two reasons.

1) They have to count the rounds. Kinda makes the drill a bit tougher instead of just blasting to slide lock.

2) If you have a malfunction you can stay in the game easier.

Unless there is a forced reload like an El Prez I always instruct shooters to use a capacity mag or topped off gun depending on the COF in a limited vickers stage and a topped off gun on a vickers stages.

mark

[vincent]

This one is not in the rulebook but seems to be pretty common practice in IDPA. As many have said they want you to count rounds. I think it goes back to the defensive nature of IDPA where you usually don't walk around with a partially charged weapon. If in doubt it is usually best to ask as some clubs will give you either a procedural or FTDR for it.

They way our local rangemasters say it is unless the course of fire dictates otherwise you should always start with full magazines. Also on a vickers count stage with a reload you should always start topped off.

Again the simplest rule of thumb is unless the course of fire says otherwise, always start topped off.

[Mayonaise]

I run a weekly match and I have to remind people to top off all the time. Eventually they learn and it becomes automatic. An SO's job is to assist the shooter NOT to hand out procedurals. Gigging a shooter for not topping off is questionable and wrong especially if they are new shooters. IMO it's a poor SO that won't remind an absent minded or new shooter the proper procedure. Even with SS and above shooters I remind them to let them know I'm on the ball. Gamers do have a tendency to take advantage of inexperienced SO's if they can.

[mdg]

  An SO's job is to assist the shooter NOT to hand out procedurals.

Well said. When asking the shooter, "Do you understand the course of fire?" if he says no...what should I do? Say "Too bad, ready? beeeeeep." We are soooooooo non-competitive when we shoot (so far anyway) it makes it all....gasp....fun.