S & W Model 647 (Opps... 646 I believe)

[MichiganShootist]

A young shooter approached me at an IDPA match last weekend. He was all excited bout the fact that he had bought his first revolver with plans to compete with it.

When I asked him what it was.. he told me it was a 4 inch S & W model 647 with a Ti cylinder. He asked me if he could chamfer the Ti cylinder and I told him from what I knew.. that wasn't possible and that he would likely ruin the gun.

Can any of you give me more info on the model?????... I haven't heard of it and wondered if he made a bad purchase or if parts like cylinders could be ordered that would fit his gun.

Thanks

Edited May 6, 2008 by MichiganShootist

[Chuck Anderson]

Near as I can tell the 647 is a .17 HMR K frame. I've only seen it in 8 3/8 inch bbl. And it didn't look like it had a Ti. cylinder. I'm guessing he got the number wrong? The 646 is a .40 S&W wheelgun manufactured for one year with a Ti. cylinder. Looks like it was plagued with sticky extraction and problems with inconsistent rim thickness in .40.

[MichiganShootist]

You must be right about the model number because he told me it was a .40 S & W caliber.

He said that even "new" factory ammo was hard to get into the cylinder ... hence his interest in a chamfer job. It sounds like he may have made a big mistake on this purchase.... especially since he bought it for competition.

Edited May 6, 2008 by MichiganShootist

[Greg Q]

They made 2 646 models, one was a full underlug and the other was a PC slabside. I knew of 3 people in my area to have one, myself included. All of the ones I knew of were sold shortly after purchase because of the same extraction problems. You almost had to beat the moon clips out. I hope this does not discourage him from revolver shooting.

[Middle Man]

646's were intended to fit into the original version of IDPA revolver division. Besides the extraction woes, Major PF 40 in that light, little L-frame resulted in a stout recoil. Minor 40 loads were, I'm told, pleasant.

[Chuck Anderson]

Are there steel cylinders available from S&W to alleviate this problem?

[kframe_mike]

I'm thinking a 646 would be a great 6 shot ICORE gun.Especially for those of us who prefer the smaller K and L frames.Seems like 120 PF .40 loads should be pretty sweet.-Mike

[Greg Q]

Are there steel cylinders available from S&W to alleviate this problem?

I had the same question for S&W and I was told they did not make one. Not sure if there is any other companies that might. It would fix the problem. 120 PF loads still would not eject easily out of mine. I have never talked to anyone that did not have the same problem.

[Carmoney]

They made 2 646 models, one was a full underlug and the other was a PC slabside. I knew of 3 people in my area to have one, myself included. All of the ones I knew of were sold shortly after purchase because of the same extraction problems. You almost had to beat the moon clips out. I hope this does not discourage him from revolver shooting.

The second run "non-PC" version with full underlug was much better than the first run of PC guns.

Ti cylinders can be chamfered with a rotary tool--however, the sparks are a different color, and Ti smells funny! But if done correctly, the result will be just fine.

[hopalong]

Try a search on the 646, it has been discussed a good bit for as few as there are of them.

(900) of the full underlug and I don't know how many PC guns but I'd bet less.

K frame Mike,

I shoot my 646 in ICORE since IDPA went the 165,000 Power factor for moonclip guns. Shooting .40 S&W at the "major" level is not quite what I would call "fun".

It is a really fun little gun to shoot at 130,000 Pf using 180 grn bullets though. and reloads as quick as my .45 N frames too !!!!!

HOP

[JWBooth]

You can chamfer the cylinder with a hand tool also. I have done both of mine. You just have to be careful. the Steel of the star seems to cut faster than the titanium. As far as the sticking chambers, polish them with a patch on a cleaning rod, and a drill at low speed . Use about 800 grit valve (automotive) lapping compound, and run the drill slow, and keep looking at your work. Both of mine are done, and I have no extraction problems. Both guns are full lugg, and one has over 25k rounds through it. Had one of the PC guns first, and sold it.----JWB

[Daniele]

I shot the nonPc model in 20 or so Italian championship matches, loading 200 plus lead bullet at 173-4 PF.

Recoil is strong, but not really more than a 45 625 in 4": extraction is not bad at all; handling is fantastic for my hands: L frame is way better than N frame ( for me).

Went at the EHC last year with a second 646 ( just in case!), it was tested and never used!

My opinion on 646: it would be the BEST S&W revo for IPSC if equipped with a 5" barrell.

[10mmdave]

I shot the nonPc model in 20 or so Italian championship matches, loading 200 plus lead bullet at 173-4 PF.

Recoil is strong, but not really more than a 45 625 in 4": extraction is not bad at all; handling is fantastic for my hands: L frame is way better than N frame ( for me).

Went at the EHC last year with a second 646 ( just in case!), it was tested and never used!

My opinion on 646: it would be the BEST S&W revo for IPSC if equipped with a 5" barrell.

I had a nice conversation with a couple S&W folks at the PSA in Hershey PA a couple of weeks

ago and mentioned the L frame 40 S&W idea again, 5 to 6 inch full lug type.

The 2 gentlemen I talked with are compeditors and seemed interested, I've shot with both of them.

Can't hurt to keep bugging them about it, it's not like they need to make anything new, just make

the holes bigger !?!

I think a 40 S&W L frame 6 inch full lug revo would be a great complement to a 40 S&W semi-auto.

Oh well, we can dream can't we

[Greg Q]

I shot the nonPc model in 20 or so Italian championship matches, loading 200 plus lead bullet at 173-4 PF.

Recoil is strong, but not really more than a 45 625 in 4": extraction is not bad at all; handling is fantastic for my hands: L frame is way better than N frame ( for me).

Went at the EHC last year with a second 646 ( just in case!), it was tested and never used!

My opinion on 646: it would be the BEST S&W revo for IPSC if equipped with a 5" barrell.

I had a nice conversation with a couple S&W folks at the PSA in Hershey PA a couple of weeks

ago and mentioned the L frame 40 S&W idea again, 5 to 6 inch full lug type.

The 2 gentlemen I talked with are compeditors and seemed interested, I've shot with both of them.

Can't hurt to keep bugging them about it, it's not like they need to make anything new, just make

the holes bigger !?!

I think a 40 S&W L frame 6 inch full lug revo would be a great complement to a 40 S&W semi-auto.

Oh well, we can dream can't we

I would buy one of those if available.

[MichiganShootist]

Thanks for all the feedback guys. It sounds like the young man should have done more investigation before he made his purchase. He planned on shooting this gun in IDPA ESR ... but it sounds like the metalurgy problems with the cylinders is a deal breaker. Everthing I've found on the net... indicated that those early Ti cylinders swell up and would rub against the forcing cone and would (as has been noted) make ejection a major problem if the gun is even slightly warm (as it would be in competition).

At the major PF required for ERS ----the generated recoil might also be a problem The young man is used to shooting a G-17 and is quite small framed.

I have also found out that his gun (one of the 300 that were put together later on with out the PC slab side and under-lug) came with a couple different types of moons. It seems the gun is so touchy that you have to sort your brass (or factory ammo) and use different moons for different brands of brass or the head spacing problems will cause FTF.

Yikes what a POS.

For even more bad news.... he told me last night that it was a brand new gun. But any chance that it might have had any collector interest further down the road has been ruinied because he has already shot 30 - 40 rounds through it.

I'm going to suggest he start looking for a place to trade it on a 610 or 625. This sounds like a terrible platform for him to try and compete in ESR----- especially as it's his first wheel gun.

Thanks again for the insights

[10mmdave]

I would buy one of those if available.

I did state a number of times that if they made it a PC gun and tried to charge $900 plus for it

then they were wasting their time. If it didn't sell for under $650 (even that may be a tad high)

it will languish on shelves or be stored away as a supposed collector gun.

I want a new 610 if only because they brought it back but I refuse to pay $800 for it,

I'd go for an L frame 40 S&W before the 610, but again, at a reasonable price.

As far as the 646, I don't think they're really a POS but they are tempermental, I'm sure the engineers

at S&W will probably be pissing all over another L frame 40 after the 2 versions they already put

out had so many issues. The newer S&W longer firing pin may cure the mixed brass/moonclip

issue (course brass manufacturs could stick to the SAAMI spec's too )

And I'd have to agree, a 4 inch light revo with 165 PF would not be a whole lot of fun, although I think

a couple of forum members do use them that way.

I don't think he'll have any trouble selling it (as long as he didn't pay too much for it)

[Carmoney]

The newer S&W longer firing pin may cure the mixed brass/moonclip issue

Huh? From what I've been seeing, S&W recently switched to a shorter firing pin.

[10mmdave]

The newer S&W longer firing pin may cure the mixed brass/moonclip issue

Huh? From what I've been seeing, S&W recently switched to a shorter firing pin.

So they changed them again

you were liking the longer .495 long FP as a replacement I thought.

[kframe_mike]

Oh what did I just do.I just bid on the one thats on Gunbroker and I'll be damned if I didn't meet the reserve.That never happens!How am I going to break this to The Boss?Quick,someone outbid me!

[Tom E]

Oh what did I just do.I just bid on the one thats on Gunbroker and I'll be damned if I didn't meet the reserve.That never happens!How am I going to break this to The Boss?Quick,someone outbid me!

That'll teach you. Problem is that's just the start. Now it needs a longer heavier barrel. $$$$$ Good thing our USPSA revo rules got changed.

[wheelgunr]

I USED A 646, WITH THE FULL UNDERLUG , IN IDPA UNTIL THE RULE CHANGE ON THE POWER FACTOR. MINE WAS 100 PERCENT RELIABLE--NEVER POLISHED THE CHAMBERS. I DID CHANGE THE SPRINGS, INSTALLED EXTENDED FIRING PIN AND BACKED OUT THE STRAIN SCREW 1 FULL TURN AND LOCKTITE IT IN PLACE(GREATEST TRIGGER EVER ON A REVOLVER I HAVE OWNED). I ALSO EXCLUSIVELY USED THE .040 MOON CLIPS, WINCHESTER BRASS, 155 RN LEAD LOADED TO 132 PF. I REALLY ENJOYED A LOT OF SUCCESS WITH THIS SETUP. AFTER THE RULE CHANGE SHOT ONE CLASSIFIER WITH 170 PF AMMO, STAYED EXPERT WITH IT BUT IT WAS NOT VERY ENJOYABLE TO SHOOT.

[Joe4d]

I've got a 646 I bought for IDPA. The cylinder's were chamfered with a titanium hand tool from Brownells and the chambers were cleaned a few times with JB bore compund. I think the gun rocks at minor powerfactor but the rule change kinda screwed me. I bought a spring kit and the C&S extended firing pin but never installed it. The only rim thickness issues I had were some brass was a little wobbly in the moonclip a fellow shooter turned me on to solid 38 super clips and those work fine as do the RIMZ plastic ones. This gun served as my primary carry gun for a while because of it's ability to load and cycle ratshot. I will admit shooting full power hollowpoints it is a little sticky but never had an issue with the 130ish PF I normally shoot.

[Bones]

I don't know guys, I hear what you've all said and are saying about the 646 and ESR power factors, but I see Josh Lentz kicking a lot of 625 butt with his .40 in ESR.

I believe the young man finished 3rd overall revolver at the Indoor Nationals (50+ shooters) and can shoot MA ESR Classifier times with it on demand.

I've seen him shoot quite a few rounds - each and every one went bang.

You might want to ask him about his set up the next time you see him.

Craig

Edited May 13, 2008 by Bones

[Joe4d]

Have you seen him shoot any of those rounds over a chronograph?

[MichiganShootist]

I think that major .40 in an N frame is clearly not too bad. Gary Cuttitta a M class shooter around here shot a 610 for several years.

The way I see it S & W created a great gun for IDPA... but then the rules changed and a 646 with a Ti cylinder at a major power factor IMO wouldn't be the revolver for a brand new wheelgunner to start with.

The young man that caused me to start this thread told me he'll probably just keep the 646 as a shooter and consider a 625.

BTW-- Josh whipped my butt at the Indoors and there is no question in my mind he can flat a$$ shoot:(