.38 Super VS. .38 Short Colt

[Carmoney]

Whoa, now, Scotty! I must respectfully disagree with your assertion that short brass in a long cylinder will be inaccurate. I have three 627s chambered in .38/.357 that I use regularly for ICORE and steel competition, and all three of them shoot very well out to 50 yards with my .38 Short Colt ammunition. In fact, I used one of my iron-sighted guns with .38 Short Colt loads to win the 25-yard standards stage at the Midwest ICORE Regionals earlier this year against some very salty competition, including the guys using scopes.

I will agree that shooting 9mm loads in a .38 Super will generally not be accurate, but that's more a function of the bullet diameter than anything else. With appropriate selection of components, however, using .38 Short Colt brass in a regular 627 is an entirely viable option.

[Carmoney]

You can shoot 9mm from the 38 super 627 with no problems. Just like 40 cal in the 610. Which is quite interesting!

Couple quick points on this: (1) The .38 Super 627-4s will generally not accept 9mm ammo unless the extractor star is lightly relieved; (2) Even then, some moonclips will not allow 9mm ammo to fit in the cylinder correctly; (3) Even then, only some types of 9mm ammo will fit; and (4) Even then, the .355" bullets used in most 9mm ammo are not going to be terribly accurate from a .38 Super barrel, although longer bullets with more bearing surface will be marginally better.

[EEH]

with all this talk between all diferent kind of brass long,short, is there any reason, 38S&W would not work

[TMC]

same with any of the short brass in a long cylinder. it is not accurate when compared to the full length case. most of the short cases cause keyholes out at 25+ yards and some will keyhole closer than that. my opinion anyways

Scott Shepherd

Everybodys results vary but I'm with Carmoney on this one. I use short colt cases and when shooting prone my gun will shoot them all in the X ring at 50 yards. Rainier plated 158's with 4.5 of IMR 4756, it was 130pf at the IRC.

Edited June 10, 2008 by TMC

[revoman]

same with any of the short brass in a long cylinder. it is not accurate when compared to the full length case. most of the short cases cause keyholes out at 25+ yards and some will keyhole closer than that. my opinion anyways

Scott Shepherd

Everybodys results vary but I'm with Carmoney on this one. I use short colt cases and when shooting prone my gun will shoot them all in the X ring at 50 yards. Rainier plated 158's with 4.5 of IMR 4756, it was 130pf at the IRC.

What is your OAL?

[TMC]

same with any of the short brass in a long cylinder. it is not accurate when compared to the full length case. most of the short cases cause keyholes out at 25+ yards and some will keyhole closer than that. my opinion anyways

Scott Shepherd

Everybodys results vary but I'm with Carmoney on this one. I use short colt cases and when shooting prone my gun will shoot them all in the X ring at 50 yards. Rainier plated 158's with 4.5 of IMR 4756, it was 130pf at the IRC.

What is your OAL?

Its nothing percise I just pushed them in until they looked right, in fact I never measured them until now when you asked. They are 1.15

[10mmdave]

with all this talk between all diferent kind of brass long,short, is there any reason, 38S&W would not work

I believe 38 S&W is a bigger case and bullet. .385 diameter if I remember correctly.

[S&WIowegan]

Several points to add to this thread:

1. .38 S&W is a different round and probably would not work here. I think I actually have some factory .38 S&W so I'll check(if I can find it ).

2. I recently bt. the Carden/ Carmoney .38 Super 627 (just cuz ). The extractor star has been relieved to accept Winchester white box 9x19mm 115 gr. ball. Mike and I tried doing the same thing with Winchester factory 9x23mm ammo and they wouldn't chamber.

3. One aspect of using .38 Short Colt vs. .38 Super is the moonclips. Starline brass in .38 SC flops around quite a bit in factory or Brownells moonclips. To avoid this syndrome, you need to buy Hearthco moons custom made to fit Starline brass. The clips are great but not cheap.

Just a few tidbits to add on a sunny afternoon in Iowa.......I'm not kidding.......the sunlight is glistening off all the new lakes

Bob.

Edited June 12, 2008 by S&WIowegan

[SharonAnne9x23]

I have a 6" 686+ I will be using for ICORE. It has not yet been cut for moons. Who is currently the best bet to get this done? What is your source for .38 Short Colt brass? Or do I need to cut .38spl down? I do have plenty of .38Super and 9x23 brass from my IPSC open class pistol. What about rechambering for 9x23 or .38Super? Or for that matter 9mmP?

I know I ask many questions but I have been out of competition for a few years and would like to know what is going on now.

Blessed Be

SharonAnne

[Carmoney]

What is your source for .38 Short Colt brass?

Starline. You can order directly from them, or Midway usually has it in stock.

[SharonAnne9x23]

Starline. You can order directly from them, or Midway usually has it in stock.

Thank You

Blessed Be

SharonAnne

[S&WIowegan]

I have a 6" 686+ I will be using for ICORE. It has not yet been cut for moons. Who is currently the best bet to get this done? What is your source for .38 Short Colt brass? Or do I need to cut .38spl down? I do have plenty of .38Super and 9x23 brass from my IPSC open class pistol. What about rechambering for 9x23 or .38Super? Or for that matter 9mmP?

I know I ask many questions but I have been out of competition for a few years and would like to know what is going on now.

Blessed Be

SharonAnne

I'll take a shot at answering your questions. I suggest working with Tom Kilhoffer at TK Custom to find a smith to mill your 686+ for moonclips. I have a 6-shot 686 I had converted to .38 Super. It will not chamber 9x23mm brass because of the taper on 9x23. A 9x23mm reamer solves that problem but I elected to leave mine a Super. I am not positive your 686+ has enough metal to tolerate the reamer since Super and 9x23 brass has a larger diameter that .357 Magnum. You sound like a genuine gun nut asking these kind of questions.

Bob.

[Greg Q]

I am going to give this a try with my new Carmonized 627. I ordered the starline 38 short colt. Emailed hearthco to get some moonclips. Now I need to figure out the load. If I read this correctly you can use the 9mm bullets .355 like Zero 115,125 HP and maybe Clays or N310 to start this up. Anybody have any experience with these combinations or recommendations. Thanks for all the help.

Greg

[Toolguy]

Your loads would probably be more accurate if you load .357 dia. bullets. The Zero 125 .357 is very accurate out to 50 yards.

Hollow points always seem to shoot tighter groups than solid point. If only shooting 25 yards or less, most bullets are good enough.

Edited June 21, 2008 by Toolguy

[Greg Q]

Your loads would probably be more accurate if you load .357 dia. bullets. The Zero 125 .357 is very accurate out to 50 yards.

Hollow points always seem to shoot tighter groups than solid point. If only shooting 25 yards or less, most bullets are good enough.

I must have misread this, I thought everyone was using a 9mm crimp die for these loads, I guess I figured that you use .355 bullets as well. Can anyone clarify this?

[Toolguy]

You have to use a 9mm crimp die because a 38 special one won't go down low enough to crimp the short case.

You can still adjust the amount of crimp the same as with a normal crimp die.

[Tom E]

Lee has .38 short colt die sets but they have a roll crimp crimp die. Use the 9mm crimp die if you want a taper crimp. Most likely the case. No pun intended. Have I got that right?

[Mover480]

I took an RCBS 357 taper crimp die and lopped about a 1/2" off the bottom for use with SC brass. Put the lock nut on the underside of the toolhead. This works well with Zero 125 JHP bullets at .356".

[ffl]

Here is what I use

125 Gr. Bullet 9mm .356 as cast (.358) Lee Mold I do not size although I will in the future for safety's sake

3.9 gr. VVN320

38 Short colt Brass (Starline)

Fed Sm Primer

Heartco Moons

This load gives me around 1000 ft/s and a 125 PF

my son and daughter both used this load at the IRC this year and the reloads were blazingly fast as compared to 38 spl.

if you have any questions please ask

david

[10mmdave]

Here is what I use

125 Gr. Bullet 9mm .356 as cast (.358) Lee Mold I do not size although I will in the future for safety's sake

3.9 gr. VVN320

38 Short colt Brass (Starline)

Fed Sm Primer

Heartco Moons

This load gives me around 1000 ft/s and a 125 PF

my son and daughter both used this load at the IRC this year and the reloads were blazingly fast as compared to 38 spl.

if you have any questions please ask

david

if you don't mind me asking, what's the OAL of the above round ?

I got a whole box of Alpha Bullets and some N320 I'd like to try.

What kind of accuracy are you getting ??

[ffl]

I don't have the OAL at this time and I will be more than happy to get it for you.

As for accuracy it is more than adequate for ICORE/IPSC/USPSA type shooting. I don't have a Ransom Rest and I have not had time to try it out on sandbags.

Dave

[SharonAnne9x23]

Iowegan, I HAVE been called a nut, sometimes even a gun nut. I have a few guns, not many. But I am a shooter, not a collector. I don't even have a backup for any of my competition guns. Talk about faith in your primaries! Anywhoo thanks for the information.

Blessed Be

SharonAnne

[ffl]

10mmdave

1.140 oal

I just measured it yesterday after my CCW Class.

[BlackSabbath]

Dave,

I shoot a 38 spl in my 627 PC gun.

Can I use the same Hearthcos for short Colt brass?

Thanks!

[ffl]

That is what I use. The Starline brass I use for 38SC is 38spl cut down. so it has the same groove.

dcs