TDean Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 You're ROing a shooter (Lim-10). He's in the middle of the stage and shoots the last target in an array. He begins to perform his programed reload.... ...depresses mag release, mag falls to ground.... ...reaches for new mag.... ....then realizes he MIKED the last target.... ....aims and fires the gun.... ....inserts new mag, racks slide, continues stage. The buzzz in the squad was that the shooter should have been DQ'd for a discharge while reloading. Was it an AD? Not according to the rule book. Was this "Unsafe Gunhandling"? According to the rule book, yes! A bullet leaving the barrel of the gun while "reloading" is considered unsafe gun handling and warrants a MDQ. The shooter was never unsafe. The bullet struck the target. Do we literally translate the wording in the rule book and DQ this shooter? Was this the "reloading" scenario the rule makers envisioned when they wrote it? What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycanthrope Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 "Accidental" in AD means accidental.....not aimed fire. When he aimed, he stopped his reload. Fired, then continued reload. IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 I agree. The shooter wasn't reloading...he was engaging targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyaboutguns Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 The shooter should not be subject to D.Q. The reason is, he/she DELIBERATELY AIMED AND FIRED at the target. By definition, deliberately engaging a target cannot simultaneously be performed while reloading, and vice-versa. The shot fired was a DELIBERATE action, performed prior to insertion of a fresh magazine into the gun, (question statement) not an AD. The question explicitly stated the shooter was engaging the target, a shot fired deliberately at the target by definition is not an AD (10.3.1.1). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianH Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 And I think a certain amount of this is at the discretion of the CRO. Nowhere do the rules state we need to tell the RO he made the wrong call. You can go dispute it, and become very unpopular. DQ people for safety infractions....don't look for ways to DQ a safe shooter.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 My 2c worth. The mere facts (as described by TDean) are: shooter started the reloading sequence, halfway through, he stopped and aborted this sequence to engage a target (the keywords here are "....aims and fires the gun...." obviously aiming at a target, and nothing else), then started the reloading sequence again. Now, rule 10.3.2.1. cannot be invoked, because the reloading action was stopped and aborted, thus no DQ can be applied. IMO, the competitor (maybe in the rush of the stage) did something at his disadvantage: he wasted time in engaging the target before inserting the fresh mag , thus having to rack the slide to proceed. Maybe he will eventually realize that he would have saved time (and discussions) finishing the reload action and then making up the mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 I'm giving each of you a gold star on your report cards for arriving at the correct conclusion. No DQ for the shot as described. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted June 10, 2003 Author Share Posted June 10, 2003 I agree, but this was a hard perspective to defend without having the rulebook to back it up. Where does the definition of engaging a target reside in the good book? Where does the reload action stop and the safely engaging a target action start? Common sense usually takes precedence in a matter such as this, but what if a real a-hole pushes the DQ. Is there anything in the book that defines engaging a target? (eg; gun at eyelevel, eyes on target...ect.) Appreciate the feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 TD, I suppose it is not explicitly stated in the rulebook, but you could argue it from rule 8.5.1: All movement must be accomplished with the finger outside the trigger guard except if targets are visible to the shooter and the shooter maintains a sight picture on the targets with the intent of engaging them. The firearm must be pointed in a safe direction and the safety should be engaged. From this, it should be very clear that, if you can see a target, and have a sight picture on it (i.e. handgun at eye level), you are actually engaging that target, and according to this (as per same rule), you are exempted from keeping your finger off the trigger guard. I also believe that it shouldn't be very difficult to accept the fact that, where an action begins (engaging a target), the previous one (reloading) ends. Or are there multi-tasking shooters that actually reload while they keep on shooting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 WTF? I've done very similar on more than one occasion and nobody threatened me with a DQ. I think a DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct on the part of the match a-hole would be more appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 No DQ No AD AD = Accidental dischage (key word here is accidental) = 3 meters or over the berm. No Unsafe Gunhandling = He knew what he want to do and did it safely. If yuo are not in the process of "trying" to put the fresh mag in the gun, or get the spent mag out, you are not reloading. A reload is a dynamic event, example: If you are running a race, and you stop running, are you still running? No you have stopped running and you are standing. If you are in the middle of a reload and you stop reloading to shoot a target you are not reloading, you are shooting. I have seen competitors drop the mag at the end of the stage, see a miss, and make it up with the bullet left in the chamber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted June 10, 2003 Author Share Posted June 10, 2003 8.5.1 cool thanks gents! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Skywalker gets an extra gold star for quoting the correct rule number. Three more gold stars and he gets a set of Ginsu steak knives, a salad spinner and a trip to Florida Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 C'mon guys, post a t least other 3 questions... I've never been to Florida! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 I think Matt did the same thing in his Vol4, Bonus section. The one where you start in the raised platform. I've also done it several times and the RO never complained (pickup gun from table then fire a shot, mag drops and you attempt to secure/catch it AFTER the shot, same condition?) But I'm glad Sky pointed out the rule just in case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 A good reason for all RO's to always have a rulebook in the range bag! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 Skywalker gets an extra gold star for quoting the correct rule number.Three more gold stars and he gets a set of Ginsu steak knives, a salad spinner and a trip to Florida Crap, that's what I get for going on the road for a few days, and NOT taking a laptop!! More lost Ginsu knives..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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