CZ SP01 SHADOW and bullet profile ....

[Shay1911]

Production as the shooting Gods intended Use what ever mags came with the gun, 5lbs trigger pulls, nice

Just to clarify the slide stop issue (where ever legal)

[Flexmoney]

Would the fact that Angus sells the slide stop with the area in question already removed make it legal part under D4 as original manufacture? IMO, yes but what do I know?

For USPSA, it wouldn't matter...as it is an internal od of a part, right? (unless the new rule book has clearly altered that?)

For IPSC, who knows. If you can get it from the factory...even if only from the factory "custom shop", then it might be deemed a factory part and be legal. Angus isn't really the factory...

**********************

But, we are drifting this thread. If we are gonna talk rules, somebody start a thread in the rules section.

[Stefano]

Hi folks,

again "on topic" about the feeding problem with my friend's Shadow, due to the very tight chamber ...

We have ordered the Lee "U" sizing-die from EGW, and today we have tested 1 hundred rounds reloaded with it ...

Well, the test went NOT so good ....

We had 2 or 3 feeding problem in ANY mags of 16 rounds, and always due to bulged rounds ...

The "U" sizing dies works better than the Dillon one, and the bulged cases are quite better re-sized than in the past, but .... that damned chamber on his Shadow is SO TIGHT that every "less-than-perfect" round is rejected and don't want to feed .....

It's VERY frustrating because every 5/6 rounds you have to stop shooting and resolve the jam ....

It's the very first time that I found an issue like this:

with my Tanfoglio Stock II I've never suffered something similar ....

I don't want to say that this is a better gun than the Shadow: on the contrary I've always seen A LOT of Shadows working perfectly during matches and practice, and I can't believe that my friend's one could be different !!!

On the other side isn't possible to use it only with new brasses, or have to gauging EVERY round before any practice session of 500 rounds ....

Any more solution we can try ?

[Shay1911]

Hi folks,

again "on topic" about the feeding problem with my friend's Shadow, due to the very tight chamber ...

We have ordered the Lee "U" sizing-die from EGW, and today we have tested 1 hundred rounds reloaded with it ...

Well, the test went NOT so good ....

We had 2 or 3 feeding problem in ANY mags of 16 rounds, and always due to bulged rounds ...

The "U" sizing dies works better than the Dillon one, and the bulged cases are quite better re-sized than in the past, but .... that damned chamber on his Shadow is SO TIGHT that every "less-than-perfect" round is rejected and don't want to feed .....

It's VERY frustrating because every 5/6 rounds you have to stop shooting and resolve the jam ....

It's the very first time that I found an issue like this:

with my Tanfoglio Stock II I've never suffered something similar ....

I don't want to say that this is a better gun than the Shadow: on the contrary I've always seen A LOT of Shadows working perfectly during matches and practice, and I can't believe that my friend's one could be different !!!

On the other side isn't possible to use it only with new brasses, or have to gauging EVERY round before any practice session of 500 rounds ....

Any more solution we can try ?

Hey Stefano,

Can you please describe exactly what kind of jam you are having? Round stuck on feed ramp not going into battery? Round fully inside chamber but wont go all the way in?

Can you describe the ammo you are using?

If you can take pictures it would be great. No worries, we have 8 of these guns operating at perfectly here. I am sure we can solve this.

Thanks,

Shay

[alellis]

Stefano

I now have over 5000 rounds through my shadow with no feeding probs ( once I got the oal right). I use Frontier 124g rn cmj bullets

But since your friends gun is 9 by 21 i guess we can't compare.

Have you tried the rounds which won't feed, into the barrel when it is removed from the gun.

I do have a complaint about CZ tho.

The trigger spring broke after 5000 rounds or so and the factory flat out refused to send me one. They said I would have to go back to the dealer I bought it from, who would have to go back to the wholesaler etc, etc.

I explained I needed it for competition and couldn't wait for weeks but they were adamant they would not help.

When a gun breaks and its only 3 months old and has only 5000 rounds through it and a 10 cent spring would fix it, I would expect the manufacturer to post one right away, not tell me to either wait weeks, possibly months for a warranty one or buy one from their shop and pay 52 euro postage for a spring weighing a few grams.

I guess shooting STI and S&W for years has spoiled me.

al

[Shay1911]

Stefano

I now have over 5000 rounds through my shadow with no feeding probs ( once I got the oal right). I use Frontier 124g rn cmj bullets

But since your friends gun is 9 by 21 i guess we can't compare.

Have you tried the rounds which won't feed, into the barrel when it is removed from the gun.

I do have a complaint about CZ tho.

The trigger spring broke after 5000 rounds or so and the factory flat out refused to send me one. They said I would have to go back to the dealer I bought it from, who would have to go back to the wholesaler etc, etc.

I explained I needed it for competition and couldn't wait for weeks but they were adamant they would not help.

When a gun breaks and its only 3 months old and has only 5000 rounds through it and a 10 cent spring would fix it, I would expect the manufacturer to post one right away, not tell me to either wait weeks, possibly months for a warranty one or buy one from their shop and pay 52 euro postage for a spring weighing a few grams.

I guess shooting STI and S&W for years has spoiled me.

al

al,

I highly recommend that you deal with the US CZ, www.czusa.com. Call and ask for Mike or CJ, two great guys. They wont just send you one spring, they will send you out spares as well, just in case.

Everytime I have had a problem, I called them up and they ship me spare parts, sometimes without any charge.

Let me know if I can help,

Shay

[alellis]

Stefano

I now have over 5000 rounds through my shadow with no feeding probs ( once I got the oal right). I use Frontier 124g rn cmj bullets

But since your friends gun is 9 by 21 i guess we can't compare.

Have you tried the rounds which won't feed, into the barrel when it is removed from the gun.

I do have a complaint about CZ tho.

The trigger spring broke after 5000 rounds or so and the factory flat out refused to send me one. They said I would have to go back to the dealer I bought it from, who would have to go back to the wholesaler etc, etc.

I explained I needed it for competition and couldn't wait for weeks but they were adamant they would not help.

When a gun breaks and its only 3 months old and has only 5000 rounds through it and a 10 cent spring would fix it, I would expect the manufacturer to post one right away, not tell me to either wait weeks, possibly months for a warranty one or buy one from their shop and pay 52 euro postage for a spring weighing a few grams.

I guess shooting STI and S&W for years has spoiled me.

al

al,

I highly recommend that you deal with the US CZ, www.czusa.com. Call and ask for Mike or CJ, two great guys. They wont just send you one spring, they will send you out spares as well, just in case.

Everytime I have had a problem, I called them up and they ship me spare parts, sometimes without any charge.

Let me know if I can help,

Shay

Shay

I really envy you guys the service that you get from American companies.

I am in Europe and since CZ USA did not get any profit from the gun I bought I cannot ask them for assistance.

I cannot understand CZ UBs attitude, for the price of a spring they would have had an enthusiastic supporter instead they have a person who will grudgingly continue to shoot a CZ but tell everyone about their shoddy service.

al

Edit to add.

Not even for the cost of a spring since they will have to give me one eventually.

Edited May 22, 2008 by alellis

[Stefano]

Hey Stefano,

Can you please describe exactly what kind of jam you are having? Round stuck on feed ramp not going into battery? Round fully inside chamber but wont go all the way in?

Can you describe the ammo you are using?

If you can take pictures it would be great. No worries, we have 8 of these guns operating at perfectly here. I am sure we can solve this.

Thanks,

Shay

Thanks to you Shay ...

We have tryed different bullet profile (TC and RN) with different OAL lenght, but the problem is always the same:

in ANY case the jam consist in round fully inside the chamber but not all the way in.

Every time, when we extract the round, we found it with a little bulge near the rim of the brass ...

As sayed before, with the "U" dies the situation it's a little better (the number of bulged cases is lower ...) but still we have many problems: it's quite impossible to fire an entire mag without jam !

I think that THIS Shadow was born with a veeeery tight chamber ...

This evening (when I'll be back at home) I'll post some picture of the "rejected rounds" ...

Edited May 22, 2008 by Stefano

[Skywalker]

For the records: 9x19 and 9x21 do not differ in anything else than a 2mm longer brass for the latter caliber.

They share the same O.A.L., the same ballistics, and the same loading data, thus a 9x19 O.A.L. applies as well to a 9x21 round.

The only difference between the two is that a 9x21mm has 2mm more brass contact with the bullet, hence maybe a higher friction when the bullet leaves the casing upon firing. I doubt this makes hardly any difference.

Stefano,

given the kind of jam you report, I would suggest you chamber gauge rounds that jam the gun.

Pick up a round that jammed the gun, disassemble the barrel, and check if the round drops freely in the barrel, down to the bottom.

This way you will be able to tell if it's a matter of bulged brass at the base, or a matter of the bullet tip prematurely contacting the rifling (i.e. cartridge loaded too long) and preventing the gun from going into full battery.

It might also help if you could completely resize some brass (see this thread), and test reloaded rounds based on fully resized brass. Firing commercial ammo could help as well.

Edited May 22, 2008 by Skywalker

[WARDOG]

Hi stefano; I've suffered your very same problem in another gun, it was a para 45acp from Dallera Custom, I think that the chamber reamer in cz factory was brand new when chamber was reamed, and so It was on the tightest spectrum of tolerances.

The ONLY solution is to send barrel to a gunsmith to have it reamed with a little bit more clearance. With a progressive press it's nearly impossible to achieve a full resizing, due to tolerances in moving parts.

Hope it helps, stef, cheers!

[Shay1911]

Every time, when we extract the round, we found it with a little bulge near the rim of the brass ...

The only thing I can think of is that the extra 2mm makes the round, the brass, too long. In other words, the chamber is 19mm long and you are inserting a 21mm piece into it. Slam that into battery with the slide and you have a bulge around the rim.

http://www.czub.cz/index.php?p=32&idp=...208〈=en

I think you may have to lengthen your chamber to fit the 9X21 since the gun is built for 9X19.

That is the only thing I can think of that will cause a bulge around the rim.

Added: I just measured my chamber and it is 18mm from barrel hood till end of chamber.

Edited May 22, 2008 by Shay1911

[Skywalker]

Every time, when we extract the round, we found it with a little bulge near the rim of the brass ...

The only thing I can think of is that the extra 2mm makes the round, the brass, too long. In other words, the chamber is 19mm long and you are inserting a 21mm piece into it.

Shay,

that's not possible.

Stefano is located in Italy, and here we are not allowed 9x19mm caliber guns.

All 9mm caliber guns sold locally are chambered for 9x21, or as the foreigners call it, 9mm "Italian", even though it was originally developed by I.M.I. to bypass 9mm Parabellum prohibition.

On second thoughts, probably it would be a good idea to do the following:

1. Resize and decap a batch of 100 brass,

2. Disassemble the gun barrel and manually chamber gauge them, to ensure they fit freely in the chamber.

3. If any of the above brass doesn't chamber, look for the culprit: it either is brass bulge at the bottom (near the base), thus it needs deeper resizing, or the chamber is not deep enough (problem to be solved by the manufacturer/importer).

4. Load a batch of rounds using the brass that passed check in step no. 2.

5. Manually chamber gauge all loaded rounds in the (dismantled) barrel, to check if they freely drop in.

6. If any of the loaded rounds doesn't drop in, then it must either be the bullet that bulged the case during insertion (and the subsequent crimp didn't remove it), or the bullet tip is prematurely contacting the rifling (solution: load shorter).

7. Shoot all rounds that passed check in step no.7 and check for jams.

[Stefano]

Folks,

first of all, thanks to you all for the great assistance: I appreciate a lot !

Today I was to the range with my friend, and we experimented a little more with different kind of ammo.

The test I performed was simple but effective:

I reloaded 3 different kind of bullets (115, 125, 155 grs RN and TC profile) with different OAL (in the range of 28,40 - 29,20 mm.) but ALL of them were reloaded using factory new cases ...

Well, the gun was feeding (and firing) PERFECTLY with all the above mentioned ammos.

On the other side, using the "normal" training ammos that I reload with used-cases collected from the groud .... we found several feeding-problems, all of them caused by bulged-cases ....

As I've stated before, the "U" sizing die works better than the "normal" sizing die, but not for ALL the cases.

In several cases (fired most probably with Open or Glock gun ...) the bulge at the base of the case is too large for the Shadow's chamber that is too tight (Wardog, thanks for your post: I think you're right ...).

Here I post some photos of the bulged rounds that caused the feeding-problems:

As you can see, I believe the only problem are those bulged cases that in my Tanfoglio aren't giving any feeding-problem but in my friend's Shadow ....

So, in my opinion there are only two solutions:

1 - have the chamber reamed as suggested by Wardog

2 - to found a solution for a full-resizing of the used cases that we want to shot with that Shadow ....

Do you agree ??

Thanks again to you all for your 1st.class support to me !

[WARDOG]

No matter how tight you try to squeeze once fired brass in a resizing die, if the brass was shot in a loose chamber it will never regain the pristine original condition. Brass is more elastic than steel.

That is more true if you reload on a progressive press,because the carbide resizing die is never allowed to touch the shell plate (because or the risk of fracturing the ring).

Having the chamber reamed to more forgiving tolerances IMHO is the only option short of spending much more time sorting brass or resizing it on a single stage press.

However having used some sp-01, I really think that the one owned by your friend is an oddball, because the ones I shot were amazingly reliable, much more so than the tanfoglio I owned (and much more accurate, I must say).

[ebg3]

Was any of this brass fired in his Shadow before? If you open up his chamber, when you resize brass he fires, you'll still have bulged brass. If you could adjust the "U" die down a bit more, you may be able to fully size the brass and eliminate the bulge. Does it look like you could sand/grind some off the die? The other option is a case pro roll sizer.

EG

[Stefano]

Was any of this brass fired in his Shadow before? If you open up his chamber, when you resize brass he fires, you'll still have bulged brass. If you could adjust the "U" die down a bit more, you may be able to fully size the brass and eliminate the bulge. Does it look like you could sand/grind some off the die? The other option is a case pro roll sizer.

EG

No, all the bulged brasses we have found was fired by other guns (probably Glock or open guns in 9mm. major ...).

Having the chamber reamed is the last chance I would suggest to my friend (Wardog, mostly because I don't know WHO would be a competent pistolsmith for this job: perhaps Dallera ?), but the "U" sizing die that we have bought (just to solve this problem) unfortunatey isn't 100% useful (it works better than the normal resizing dies, but still we have 1-2 bulged brasses every 16 we are firing ...

I would also try to grind off 1-2 millimeters fron an original Dillon sizing, just to see if the die can work better at the base of the case: guys, do you think that grinding off 2 millimeter is too much ??

[Skywalker]

Before grinding the sizing die, you might want to experiment with this setup: this way you just need to process all fired brass (from a different handgun) once, then it will be good to go in your chamber from then on.

Even though the pics are missing, the basic setup is a single stage press with a fitted Lee Factory Crimp Die, whose crimp sleeve and stem have been removed, to work like a tunnel.

The press ram has been fitted with a rod (punch) that will fit (almost) exactly the internal nominal diameter of the brass.

The operation is quite simple: slide the brass to be resized upside down onto the rod, pull press lever forcing the brass & rod all the way up the FCD die, pick up the prass when it's completely above the die.

[alellis]

Was any of this brass fired in his Shadow before? If you open up his chamber, when you resize brass he fires, you'll still have bulged brass. If you could adjust the "U" die down a bit more, you may be able to fully size the brass and eliminate the bulge. Does it look like you could sand/grind some off the die? The other option is a case pro roll sizer.

EG

No, all the bulged brasses we have found was fired by other guns (probably Glock or open guns in 9mm. major ...).

Having the chamber reamed is the last chance I would suggest to my friend (Wardog, mostly because I don't know WHO would be a competent pistolsmith for this job: perhaps Dallera ?), but the "U" sizing die that we have bought (just to solve this problem) unfortunatey isn't 100% useful (it works better than the normal resizing dies, but still we have 1-2 bulged brasses every 16 we are firing ...

I would also try to grind off 1-2 millimeters fron an original Dillon sizing, just to see if the die can work better at the base of the case: guys, do you think that grinding off 2 millimeter is too much ??

Why not dump the bad brass.

Thats what I do.

By the time it developes a skirt it has been used quite a few times.

My friends say I am too fussy but I gauge every single round I make, usually a few are a bit tight in the gauge so I put them aside.

I then put them through the Lee FCD and either shoot them in practice and dump the brass or use them in a lost brass match.

I don't mind being called fussy I have practically no ammo related malfunctions in either my Edge or the Eastern European 9mm (with poor after sales service) that I use.

al

[Stefano]

Before grinding the sizing die, you might want to experiment with this setup: this way you just need to process all fired brass (from a different handgun) once, then it will be good to go in your chamber from then on.

Even though the pics are missing, the basic setup is a single stage press with a fitted Lee Factory Crimp Die, whose crimp sleeve and stem have been removed, to work like a tunnel.

The press ram has been fitted with a rod (punch) that will fit (almost) exactly the internal nominal diameter of the brass.

The operation is quite simple: slide the brass to be resized upside down onto the rod, pull press lever forcing the brass & rod all the way up the FCD die, pick up the prass when it's completely above the die.

Thanks so much Luca:

this is a very simple, efficient and inexpensive solution !!

I've read on the last number of Frontsight Magazine about a dedicated full-sizing die that works just in the same manner ...

[Stefano]

Was any of this brass fired in his Shadow before? If you open up his chamber, when you resize brass he fires, you'll still have bulged brass. If you could adjust the "U" die down a bit more, you may be able to fully size the brass and eliminate the bulge. Does it look like you could sand/grind some off the die? The other option is a case pro roll sizer.

EG

No, all the bulged brasses we have found was fired by other guns (probably Glock or open guns in 9mm. major ...).

Having the chamber reamed is the last chance I would suggest to my friend (Wardog, mostly because I don't know WHO would be a competent pistolsmith for this job: perhaps Dallera ?), but the "U" sizing die that we have bought (just to solve this problem) unfortunatey isn't 100% useful (it works better than the normal resizing dies, but still we have 1-2 bulged brasses every 16 we are firing ...

I would also try to grind off 1-2 millimeters fron an original Dillon sizing, just to see if the die can work better at the base of the case: guys, do you think that grinding off 2 millimeter is too much ??

Why not dump the bad brass.

Thats what I do.

By the time it developes a skirt it has been used quite a few times.

My friends say I am too fussy but I gauge every single round I make, usually a few are a bit tight in the gauge so I put them aside.

I then put them through the Lee FCD and either shoot them in practice and dump the brass or use them in a lost brass match.

I don't mind being called fussy I have practically no ammo related malfunctions in either my Edge or the Eastern European 9mm (with poor after sales service) that I use.

al

Al,

my friend isn't so serius (like me and you) about shooting:

I'm trying to find a solution (for him) only because - knowing his personal attitude - I'm sure the without finding any solution to his problem, most probably he could decide to sell his new Shadow ....

And in this case PROBABLY I can think to buy it (... if the price is related to the malfunction of the gun)

Edited May 23, 2008 by Stefano

[jam-man]

Don't know if this can help, however I thought it is worth a try. I had very similar problem with an EAA Witness Match. The gun would run 100% when I am using cast bullets from two differnet manufactors. When I changed over to another companies bullets it would only chamber about every other round. I even have had bullets stuck in the barreal and the casing extractor only tring to remove the round. I also found that it would run 100% with Berry plated bullets, but would not with another companies plated bullets.

My first impression was the OAL was the problem, I have found that it makes no difference so far as reliabilty. All the cast bullets say .356 dimater and the plated bullets or .355. However, the Witness Match will simpily not run with some bullets period.

Hope this may help, I would strongly suggest tring some Berry Plated bullets and see if it resolves the problem. Good Luck

[steel1212]

I didn't read the whole thread so I may have missed this. Have you tried factory ammo? If factory ammo runs fine then I would say dumb that brass and either have him by positivly once fired brass or new brass and just pick it up. That picture you posted of that piece of brass looks like you just not sizing down far enough. I do touch the shell plate but just barely with my lee die. I've never had a problem with it doing that way and all my brass chambers in my tight chambers.

Edited May 23, 2008 by steel1212

[eerw]

think Shay has covered most of the technical stuff as far as long bullets and adjusting the slidestop..

man..that brass..being mixed and from Glocks is most likely the culprit..you just can't feed a gun crap brass...

I'd have your buddy..just sort bad looking stuff out...he's got to take the time somewhere..or the gun is just not going to run 100%

scrouging brass..of unknown number of firings and loads..will no doubt give you some frustration..unless you're willing to sort it, size it and chamber check it..

[Stefano]

think Shay has covered most of the technical stuff as far as long bullets and adjusting the slidestop..

man..that brass..being mixed and from Glocks is most likely the culprit..you just can't feed a gun crap brass...

I'd have your buddy..just sort bad looking stuff out...he's got to take the time somewhere..or the gun is just not going to run 100%

scrouging brass..of unknown number of firings and loads..will no doubt give you some frustration..unless you're willing to sort it, size it and chamber check it..

Eerw, your right !

A gun chambered with such a tight tolerance has to be feeded with more attention ...

I'll suggest to my friend to spend a little of time sorting those brasses ...

[NOSAJ19]

FYI.

I shoot both a G17A & CZ 75 SP01 Shadow. I use the same reloaded ammo through both my guns, 125LC conical/3.3gr.AP50/1.1" OAL. Very accurate & 100% reliable.

I tumble & clean my brass before reloading & am not particular about brand (I shoot my brass until it either splits or is damaged. I hand select match ammo, but for practice, anything goes). I reload on a Dillon 550 with Dillon Dies.

Personally, I have fired over 10,000 rounds through my CZ in under 12 months without one issue.

Cheers, Ando.

Edited May 24, 2008 by NOSAJ19