CZ SP01 SHADOW and bullet profile ....

[Stefano]

A club-mate of my has recently bought the ultimate Shadow version of the estimated CZ-SP01, and he's serching for a few reloading tips .....

I was told that the Shadow doesn't like RN bullets, in particular heavy ones (up to 145/147grs ....) but serching in the forum I've found a bunch of guys who are happy with this kind of loads ...

As I see the only tip is to load "short" (if I'm not wrong almost 1.100" ...).

Is really an issue the bullet profile with the Shadow ??

Unfortunately I can't give to him any kind of personal advice, because I shoot (any kind of bullet) with a Tanfoglio Stock 2 ....

Thanks !

Stefano

[Chuck Anderson]

I've never had a problem with 147s in mine. I shoot Zero 147 JHP or Winchester 147 TMJ. I haven't tried a conventional RN profile though.

[Shay1911]

Stefano,

The CZ has a very tight short chamber and the rifling starts much closer to the chamber. They call it a competition barrel I guess

I find that 115's and 124's feel and shoot the best, but that is personal.

As far as length...

The 147's can bump the slide stop, so most of us grind down the slide stop bump just a bit to clear the bullets.

I load my Zero's round noses and Montana Gold's JHP to 1.125, but FP to 1.10. I have shot 115's as long as 1.165 in it without a problem.

What ever bullet he chooses, load it long, dont crimp much , put it in the chamber till you touch the rifling and then back off a bit.

[Stefano]

Stefano,

The CZ has a very tight short chamber and the rifling starts much closer to the chamber. They call it a competition barrel I guess

I find that 115's and 124's feel and shoot the best, but that is personal.

As far as length...

The 147's can bump the slide stop, so most of us grind down the slide stop bump just a bit to clear the bullets.

I load my Zero's round noses and Montana Gold's JHP to 1.125, but FP to 1.10. I have shot 115's as long as 1.165 in it without a problem.

What ever bullet he chooses, load it long, dont crimp much , put it in the chamber till you touch the rifling and then back off a bit.

Thanks Shay,

it's the same input I've had from an european guy (CZ sponsorized shooter ...) on Global Village forum:

the Shadow don't like so much heavy bullets due to his short-chamber ....

The secondary issue (for italian shooters) is that we cannot shoot 9x19 (wich is considerd for "law-enforcment-only") but only 9x21, and so we must arrange for this particular cartridge any tips about OAL that you guys are suggesting to me ...

Anyway, thanks so much !!

Stefano

[alellis]

Stefano,

The 147's can bump the slide stop, so most of us grind down the slide stop bump just a bit to clear the bullets.

I load my Zero's round noses and Montana Gold's JHP to 1.125, but FP to 1.10. I have shot 115's as long as 1.165 in it without a problem.

What ever bullet he chooses, load it long, dont crimp much , put it in the chamber till you touch the rifling and then back off a bit.

I Don't understand this.

Can you elaborate

al

[Shay1911]

Stefano,

The 147's can bump the slide stop, so most of us grind down the slide stop bump just a bit to clear the bullets.

I load my Zero's round noses and Montana Gold's JHP to 1.125, but FP to 1.10. I have shot 115's as long as 1.165 in it without a problem.

What ever bullet he chooses, load it long, dont crimp much , put it in the chamber till you touch the rifling and then back off a bit.

I Don't understand this.

Can you elaborate

al

Sorry...

Its a way to find the longest length that you can load for your gun with a specific bullet. They say that's the way to achieve maximum accuracy. I am not sure how much difference it makes.

Load a round with a loose crimp, no primer or powder. Load it way long, longer than you think your gun would take. Gently tap it into the chamber of your barrel, gently. When the case is flush, where its supposed to be in your gun, you achieved longest OAL that your chamber can take. Now, back it off .05 or so and you have the maximum length to load.

Hope I explained it right.

[alellis]

The 147's can bump the slide stop, so most of us grind down the slide stop bump just a bit to clear the bullets.

Stefano

Pardon me I highlighted too much of your post.

This is this part I don't get

al

[Shay1911]

The SP01 slide stop extends in too far and can be bumped by rounds as they are stripped from the mag if they are too big. We just grind that bump off. It's no big deal and only certain bullet profiles bump it.

[Chuck Anderson]

It's also illegal for IPSC. Which is what Stefano, and I'm guessing his buddy, shoots. Cool for USPSA, no go for IPSC.

[Stefano]

A brief report after today's 1st. session with my friend and his new Shadow:

- with HIS rounds (TC bullet, OAL = 1.122" (28,50 mm.) --> bang, bang, JAM,bang,JAM,JAM,bang,JAM.... ;-((

- with MY rounds (RN bullet, OAL = 1.161" (29,50 mm.) --> BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG ... ;-))

Another (probable) issue we have noticed is that is seems the barrel's chamber is VERY precise:

if the rounds are less than perfect ... they don't want to feed !

My friend has reloaded his TC rounds with an XL 650, and I've noticed that the jammed rounds were with a little bumped circle just over the rim of the case ...

My RN rounds were better sized (I reload with a Super 1050) and even if longer they feeded without problems.

At this point I'm a little bit confused about the importance of loading "short" for the Shadow ...

Edited April 13, 2008 by Stefano

[double_pedro]

A brief report after today's 1st. session with my friend and his new Shadow:

- with HIS rounds (TC bullet, OAL = 1.122" (28,50 mm.) --> bang, bang, JAM,bang,JAM,JAM,bang,JAM.... ;-((

- with MY rounds (RN bullet, OAL = 1.161" (29,50 mm.) --> BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG ... ;-))

Another (probable) issue we have noticed is that is seems the barrel's chamber is VERY precise:

if the rounds are less than perfect ... they don't want to feed !

My friend has reloaded his TC rounds with an XL 650, and I've noticed that the jammed rounds were with a little bumped circle just over the rim of the case ...

My RN rounds were better sized (I reload with a Super 1050) and even if longer they feeded without problems.

At this point I'm a little bit confused about the importance of loading "short" for the Shadow ...

The issue may not simply be one of length, but also the shape of the bullet (i.e. where it may start to engage the rifling). Chamber check the rounds prior to shooting them to ensure they drop easily into and out of the chamber by hand (i.e. take the barrel out of the slide and use it as a go/no-go guage).

As was suggested previously, make a dummy round (no powder or primer) that is lightly crimped and way too long. Tap it fully into the chamber by hand (a small hammer may be needed) so the rifling actually seats the bullet to the maximum length. Then use a squib rod and gently tap the (now stuck) round out of the chamber. If you don't drive the bullet further into the case, the OAL of the dummy round will now be the longest you can use without running into the rifling (at least for that bullet shape). Make sure your reloads are shorter than this and you shouldn't run into any problems due to the length of the chamber. You may still run into issues with the dimensions of the case due to less than perfect (full-length) re-sizing.

[Stefano]

As was suggested previously, make a dummy round (no powder or primer) that is lightly crimped and way too long. Tap it fully into the chamber by hand (a small hammer may be needed) so the rifling actually seats the bullet to the maximum length. Then use a squib rod and gently tap the (now stuck) round out of the chamber. If you don't drive the bullet further into the case, the OAL of the dummy round will now be the longest you can use without running into the rifling (at least for that bullet shape). Make sure your reloads are shorter than this and you shouldn't run into any problems due to the length of the chamber. You may still run into issues with the dimensions of the case due to less than perfect (full-length) re-sizing.

Thanks Pedro,

as I've previously sayed, my feeling is that - as usual - the longer OAL is the best (regards feeding ...).

Surely the trick of making a dummy-round for cheking chamber-lenght is a very-good solution !

But, as I've seen sunday, the main issue are the bumped-brasses that it's quite impossible to resize perfectly (near the base) with a "common" resizing die.

I think that my friend needs urgently an "U-sizing die" from EGW ....

Right ?

Edited April 15, 2008 by Stefano

[Johann the Horrible]

It's also illegal for IPSC. Which is what Stefano, and I'm guessing his buddy, shoots. Cool for USPSA, no go for IPSC.

No it is not. Even in PD it would be allowed as long as you do it under minor detailing to make the gun more reliable.

[WRHALL]

Steano the problem is the bullet profile.I bought a SPo1,shot about 150 rounds of 115 gr FMJ that I'd loaded 2 years before for a GSSF match with NO problems .One week later I headed out for a USPSA match with some newly loaded different brand 115 gr FMJ & could not get through a single stage of a 4 stage match without at least 1 double feed malfunction.At the same match I bought some 121 gr LRN which I loaded up,shot another 150 rounds then took to another 4 stage USPSA match with NO problems.Three different bullets,ALL loaded to an OAL of 1.130 with 2 TOTALLY different results.MY advice is to pull your bbl & drop check a loaded round,ignoring what the OAL is until you get to the point where the round will FREELY drop.AT that point set your die & check the chrono (short rounds will be hotter).YMMV but IMO I'd DEFINTELY drop check rather than trust OAL when dealing with SP01s.

[Stefano]

Hi folks,

today 2nd live fire session with my friend and his new "jam-o-matic" Shadow ...

The situation it's a little bit better: today he's used MY rounds (FMJ RN-bullet, 147 grs, OAL=29,50 mm.) and he suffered only a 10% of feeding problems, due to small amount of bulged-near-the-base cases ....

I reload with a Super 1050, and probably my Dillon sizing die is better fitted than my friend's one on his XL 650.

Anyway it's evident that the Shadow's chamber in VEEERY precise: all the rounds rejected were successfully fired by my Tanfoglio Stock 2

At this point we really would like to try the famous "undersize sizing die" from EGW: does anyone have any experience with it ?

Edited April 15, 2008 by Stefano

[Shay1911]

Hi folks,

today 2nd live fire session with my friend and his new "jam-o-matic" Shadow ...

The situation it's a little bit better: today he's used MY rounds (FMJ RN-bullet, 147 grs, OAL=29,50 mm.) and he suffered only a 10% of feeding problems, due to small amount of bulged-near-the-base cases ....

I reload with a Super 1050, and probably my Dillon sizing die is better fitted than my friend's one on his XL 650.

Anyway it's evident that the Shadow's chamber in VEEERY precise: all the rounds rejected were successfully fired by my Tanfoglio Stock 2

At this point we really would like to try the famous "undersize sizing die" from EGW: does anyone have any experience with it ?

Stefano,

If my calculation is correct, that is 1.161 in 147, which is way long. I would guess its the bullet stuck in the rifling and not the case. Try loading it to 1.125 or 28.57 mm.

I am glad to hear the SPO1 has a more precise chamber than "others"

Also, in my opinion, 124's and 115's work a lot better in the CZ. I, personally, shoot 115's. They are snappier but the front sight barely moves.

The gun is not that picky, we are shooting Remington cheap ammo in 115 and PMC. It will eat Winchester white box 115's all day as well.

Edited April 15, 2008 by Shay1911

[oddjob]

I shoot a SP-01 in Production and the only problem I had was the length of the reloaded cartridge. Bullet profile did not matter in my gun. I have settled on a 125 JHP as my match round. I use lead 125's for club matches.

[Stefano]

Hi folks,

today 2nd live fire session with my friend and his new "jam-o-matic" Shadow ...

The situation it's a little bit better: today he's used MY rounds (FMJ RN-bullet, 147 grs, OAL=29,50 mm.) and he suffered only a 10% of feeding problems, due to small amount of bulged-near-the-base cases ....

I reload with a Super 1050, and probably my Dillon sizing die is better fitted than my friend's one on his XL 650.

Anyway it's evident that the Shadow's chamber in VEEERY precise: all the rounds rejected were successfully fired by my Tanfoglio Stock 2

At this point we really would like to try the famous "undersize sizing die" from EGW: does anyone have any experience with it ?

Stefano,

If my calculation is correct, that is 1.161 in 147, which is way long. I would guess its the bullet stuck in the rifling and not the case. Try loading it to 1.125 or 28.57 mm.

I am glad to hear the SPO1 has a more precise chamber than "others"

Also, in my opinion, 124's and 115's work a lot better in the CZ. I, personally, shoot 115's. They are snappier but the front sight barely moves.

The gun is not that picky, we are shooting Remington cheap ammo in 115 and PMC. It will eat Winchester white box 115's all day as well.

Shay,

thanks for your tip: I have a box of 115 grs. FMJ bullets and we'll try it defenitely, with your suggested OAL.

Despite of the 1.161 OAL we tryed yesterday, his ammo feeded OK, with only a 10% of feeding problems due to bulges cases.

For explaining this non-issue, does it matter that my friend's Shadow is chambered in 9x21 (here in Italy we can't use 9x19) ??

Perhaps with 9x21 we can load a little bit longer than in 9x19 ...

Guys, thanks to you all for your help !

The SP-01 is indeed a very-good gun, with a "very-very-cool" look !!

I begin to love it and probably I'll bought me too when we'll found the right ammo !

Edited April 16, 2008 by Stefano

[Flexmoney]

There is nothing wrong with a 650.

The Dillon sizing die might not be getting far enough down the case. Or, the die might not be set to get as far down the case as possible. There is lots of information on this on the forum. The Dillon die has more of a funnel at the entrance...the funnel means it can't get as far down the case. Other brands (Lee is popular) don't have as much of a funnel.

If you take the barrel out of the gun and use that exact barrel to chamber gauge the ammo, you should be able to figure out exactly why the rounds are failing.

[Flexmoney]

It's also illegal for IPSC. Which is what Stefano, and I'm guessing his buddy, shoots. Cool for USPSA, no go for IPSC.

No it is not. Even in PD it would be allowed as long as you do it under minor detailing to make the gun more reliable.

I don't know about that. The change being mentioned would be removing material. That has always been reported as being beyond minor detailing.

[Shay1911]

Appendix D4

"Exchange of minor components (Springs, safeties, slide stops, guide rods)."

Change is internal and not external.

[Flexmoney]

If you are going to quote the rule book....better get in the right book/sport.

[Shay1911]

Sorry, stuck on USPSA

[Flexmoney]

Here ya go...

IPSC D4

19. Original parts and components offered by the OFM as standard equipment, or as an option, for a specific model

handgun on the IPSC approved handgun list are permitted, subject to the following:

19.1 Modifications to them, other than minor detailing, are prohibited.

IPSC Rules Interp.

9. In respect of Appendix D4, Point 19.1, the expression "minor detailing" means the removal of burrs and/or adjustments unavoidably required in order to fit replacement OFM parts and components.

And Vince's words of wisdom on it: http://ipsc.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=4094

See 3.21 on his list of FAQ's.

21. Can I polish, grind, shave or dremel the internal components of my gun? - NO

[SLM]

Would the fact that Angus sells the slide stop with the area in question already removed make it legal part under D4 as original manufacture? IMO, yes but what do I know?