Optics speed vs Irons

[jobob]

"General thought: Irons ARE NOT the end all and the be all, but they sure ARE under rated by people who should know better!"

Now, THAT is the truest statement I've read here. I've seen some phenominal shooting with irons, and I've seen some pretty bad shooting with them, by people who should shoot better. I've also seen some matches where some of the targets were VERY difficult to see without the benefit of magnification and clear optics. My 58 year old eyes just have a hard time focusing on that front sight, too, and I find it very difficult to shoot consistently well with them. However, I do intend to shoot the occassional local match in Limited, just for the sporting value of it, and to help develop my versatility as a shooter.

I was the top qualifier for years in my agency using just the A2 sights on my issued carbine. I did not use optics because my agency did not allow them at the time (they do now, of course, since I'm retired!). I would have used optics if the option had been available to me.

The main advantage of optics is to put both the target and sights on the same focal plane. One need not shift the focus from target to front sight. Just put the reticle on the target and shoot!

The other big advantage for many optics is the increased target definition afforded by magnification. If you can't identify your target you should not be shooting! A side benefit of magnification is being able to often see where you are hitting before the RO calls a hit or miss. It gives confidence in your equipment and your own abilities. I've seen too many good shooters with irons fire round after round at a distant target without the RO calling a hit, and watched their confidence level fade to nothing!

If you're a great shot with irons, that is wonderful, and more power to you. But realize that when a shooter chooses glass, there may be a variety of reasons for doing so, not just advertising hype!

Beside, everyone knows that Tactical Optics is where the REAL competition is!

[blkbrd]

Let the timer decide for you.

[mpeltier]

A true marksman will do good no matter the sighting system. "Nothing beats Irons" is as true a statement as "Nothing beats Optics". For me personally it is the unforeseen variables of our sport that make optics my choice. For instance, one stage at the Area-6 3-gun had the shooter in the woods shooting targets that are also in the woods, with the sun shinning bright, the dancing shadows made it impossible to see the front sight, it cost a bit of time. I shot optic the following year and the conditions were the same, no problem seeing the sight though. Same problem shooting into dark areas, hard if not impossible to see the front sight at times. Some would consider that a challenge they desire and argue in favor of Irons. I think it boils down to enjoyment of the shooting. This is an activity I persue for recreation and I enjoy shooting optics over Irons. Others with a different view would go the opposite route. Thankfully we have the option of both. So whats better the 9mm or the .45?????

[kurtm]

I have also seen some incredibly bad shooting with irons...from behind the rear aperture! I have seen guys empty rifles at a 200 yard MGM flash target w/ a 3X9 Leopold scope. I have seen XXX State of the Union and boy you aint kidding! I have yet to own an optic that didn't drift zero, and I own some real high end glass! I haven't found that to be the case with good aperture sights, (maybe because I don't expect much from them and the best I can shoot with iron sights is like 8 MOA) I havent changed the zero on my match rifle for 3 years now. With my TA-11 I have to rezero before every match and I really like to reafrim zero when I get there! Meopta the same as well as the U.S. Optics 1X4, so I don't really trust optics.....BUT as you can see I do own them so I am not exactly only an "Iron Guy", but I really do mean it when I say up close NOTHING beats iron!!

[jobob]

Well, depending on HOW close, you could also say that NOTHING beats NOTHING. My smart ass way of saying that for really close shooting, no sights at all (point shooting) is faster than anything. I've found it's often quicker to look over the gun, or cant it to the left to get the scope out of the way and just look down the forend.

[walangkatapat]

I have also seen some incredibly bad shooting with irons...from behind the rear aperture! I have seen guys empty rifles at a 200 yard MGM flash target w/ a 3X9 Leopold scope. I have seen XXX State of the Union and boy you aint kidding! I have yet to own an optic that didn't drift zero, and I own some real high end glass! I haven't found that to be the case with good aperture sights, (maybe because I don't expect much from them and the best I can shoot with iron sights is like 8 MOA) I havent changed the zero on my match rifle for 3 years now. With my TA-11 I have to rezero before every match and I really like to reafrim zero when I get there! Meopta the same as well as the U.S. Optics 1X4, so I don't really trust optics.....BUT as you can see I do own them so I am not exactly only an "Iron Guy", but I really do mean it when I say up close NOTHING beats iron!!

What are good aperture sights?

[kurtm]

Any iron type aperture sight that will hold to 8 MOA

Best example is the sights found on an M-14, next best example is the sights found on an M-16A2. Worst example Lyman "Internationals w/ Globe front sight" but still pretty good aperture sights ( what the common man would call open sights or iron sights)

A Mississippi Flush BEATS ANYTHING!! 5 cards of any kind and a small revolver

AHHH!!! Getting the scope out of the way eh??? Thanks for proving MY point so nicely!! KURTM

[mpeltier]

With my TA-11 I have to rezero before every match and I really like to reafrim zero when I get there! Meopta the same as well as the U.S. Optics 1X4, so I don't really trust optics.....

Kurt, Exactly how much homemade cider do you consume????? LOL

I must be very luck cause i only seem to need to adjust zero when I change ammo lots/brands. I verify zero all the time and rarely find any change with both my Meoptas and my TA-33. I am sure that you probably get a lot more rounds down range than I do.

Now if I could only figure out how to grab a quote when I post.......

[kurtm]

I can shoot those quote with iron or optic, but darned if I can figure out how to grab them either. I get through about 20 galln a year except it seems all my friends want to help, now the home brew...thats a different story! But this is all thread drift...just like most optics do, at least for me! KURTM

[Chills1994]

I caught some shooting TV show last week or maybe the week before where a Trijicon rep or training guy was training some cops on how to use the ACOG.

Man!

I was just a little freaked out when the guy smacked the top of ACOG HARD! to get the reticle adjustments to seat (or set?).

I'm thinking "Man, that's supposed to be the top of the line optics our military and law enforcement is using and you have to STILL hit the thing."

No offense to the ACOG or Trijicon folks. It just freaked me out, a little.

[Matt Cheely]

And that is why my perfect rifle has A1 rear sights.

[walangkatapat]

Any iron type aperture sight that will hold to 8 MOA

Best example is the sights found on an M-14, next best example is the sights found on an M-16A2. Worst example Lyman "Internationals w/ Globe front sight" but still pretty good aperture sights ( what the common man would call open sights or iron sights)

A Mississippi Flush BEATS ANYTHING!! 5 cards of any kind and a small revolver

AHHH!!! Getting the scope out of the way eh??? Thanks for proving MY point so nicely!! KURTM

So your basic AR sights are good to go, I thought I may be missing some thing else.

[kurtm]

Small revolver hee hee hee!!!

I like to move the front sight out behind the comp for a better/longer sight radius, but the stock A2 are what I use. KURTM

[ken hebert]

<--- National match sights on my M1A. Rockin'

With statements like "nothing beats irons up close" and "easier to see/shoot far targets faster with optics" (a generalization of both), doesn't that lend creedence to tac division being the cats meow?

Best of both worlds?

edit: No, that's not fair. Strike it. There are the existing divisions because that's what we, the shooters, want. You pick up the rifle of your choice that morning and have fun at the match. (or practice )

Edited March 19, 2008 by ken hebert

[jobob]

"AHHH!!! Getting the scope out of the way eh??? Thanks for proving MY point so nicely!!"

Not really proving your point, just getting the sight out of the way to use no sights at all. I'd do the same if I were shooting Limited. Well, I may be slightly wrong, here. With irons, I suppose you can see part of a very close target on either side of the sights, so you don't really need to cant the rifle, but you aren't exactly aligning the sights either, just using the outline of the rear sight superimposed on the target with target focus. Sorta like Jim Cirillo's short range handgun method. Is that how you use irons on the hosing stages?

OTOH I can the see the utility of close range iron auxillary sights when the main optic has a limited field of view, like an ACOG. For pure speed, though, I don't see how irons can be faster than a good reflex. But then, I'm not a GM (just a wannabee), so I can't prove it!

[kurtm]

You don't have to prove it Alaskapopo did it for you...the part where he said he was suprises that irons were faster than the EoTec @ 17 yds.. I am not a GM either! As for hosing I look at the rear and the front sights, but since I am not looking through a tube or screen, and my eye isn't drawn to a large glow winky blob in the middle of a tube or screen, I have much better perriferal vision, and I can concentrat on, ...yep you guessed it,...the front sight!

BUT I now realise all of you guys are right, the only way to ever shoot a rifle fast and accurate is to have an optic. There is no way a good Iron sight shooter can ever even come close to even a so so scope shooter, what was I thinking? I have seen the light so now I guess I will drop into the Tactical class, that ought to put all of you a place or two ahead...because after all anyone that shoots Iron couldn't possibly know how to use an optic I can't believe how you guys can do it What optic do you guys recomend?? Is there any info to be found on this question? Where should I start looking?

[Smoky Bear]

I hear TASCO makes a hell of a great scope for you! STP

[Scout454]

You don't have to prove it Alaskapopo did it for you...the part where he said he was suprises that irons were faster than the EoTec @ 17 yds.. I am not a GM either! As for hosing I look at the rear and the front sights, but since I am not looking through a tube or screen, and my eye isn't drawn to a large glow winky blob in the middle of a tube or screen, I have much better perriferal vision, and I can concentrat on, ...yep you guessed it,...the front sight!

BUT I now realise all of you guys are right, the only way to ever shoot a rifle fast and accurate is to have an optic. There is no way a good Iron sight shooter can ever even come close to even a so so scope shooter, what was I thinking? I have seen the light so now I guess I will drop into the Tactical class, that ought to put all of you a place or two ahead...because after all anyone that shoots Iron couldn't possibly know how to use an optic I can't believe how you guys can do it What optic do you guys recomend?? Is there any info to be found on this question? Where should I start looking?

Kurt,

Try BSA or Barska! Excellent glass!

[kurtm]

Some one told me that LEAPERS make a great scope for 3-gun! Anyone use one?? KAM

[bigbrowndog]

Kurt, I have an excellent piece of glass for you, "its mostly for lookin' thru" ................if you can find me this weekend I'll give it to you!!!!!

Trapr

[jobob]

Gee, no sarcasm on this thread is there? Excuse me while I go to the garage and dig out my hip boots!

[Chills1994]

I've got a POS BSA Sweet 17 scope that couldn't hold a zero if it came with a handle on it.

So what if the BDC feature is just for that little .17 HMR cartridge and not for a 55 gr .223 FMJ pro-jo.

It's not gonna hold zero long enough for it to matter anyway.

If you want it Kurt, just say the word. You'd be doing me a favor by taking it off my hands.

Not to be sarcastic or anything.

[Chuck Anderson]

BUT I now realise all of you guys are right, the only way to ever shoot a rifle fast and accurate is to have an optic. There is no way a good Iron sight shooter can ever even come close to even a so so scope shooter, what was I thinking? I have seen the light so now I guess I will drop into the Tactical class, that ought to put all of you a place or two ahead...because after all anyone that shoots Iron couldn't possibly know how to use an optic I can't believe how you guys can do it What optic do you guys recomend?? Is there any info to be found on this question? Where should I start looking?

Jeesh, it's about time you figured this out. I didn't think you'd ever come around and wise up to the fact that optics shooters are just plain superior in every way to you iron guys. We're even better looking and we don't have that funny looking gold stuff all over our carry guns.

On a serious note, has anyone thought about setting up the tests mentioned in the first post and doing it for themselves? I know the results are going to vary person to person and that's the important thing. I would probably be faster with irons than with an optic to certain distance. Kurt will be faster with irons than optic to a certain distance. But I'm willing to be Kurt is going to be faster with the irons further out than I will because he practices with them more than I do. I think it would be interesting for the folks posting on this thread to take some time and actually go set it up. I was going to do it today and tomorrow and Friday but I have to testify against some fine upstanding gentleman who beat his 10 year old kid black and blue for making mistakes on his homework.

What would be a good test of this Time alone or HF scoring. What distances should the targets be set. All off hand or prone when we get to X distance?

[Scout454]

I'm over 60 and I can still shoot irons - and up close they are still faster than glass. But, I have found that at the distance where I have to "see" the target too, I lose time. And yes, I have tried similar drills. I have found that as my eyes age the muscles weaken and it takes longer to find the front sight, make sure it's lined up in the rear notch and acquire the target. I have no trouble hitting LaRue's and 8-10" plates at 300 yards with irons but I can do it a hell of a lot faster with glass.

I tried dot's and glass (on rifles) and overall, crosshairs are faster - for me (50 years of muscle memory counts for something). I've tried a small dot (Docter) on the handguard and at social distances, it's pretty quick. Recently I put a set of flip-up irons on a handguard and so far, I like it out to 25 yards. I still have decent glass on top though.

Slight drift on - I shoot both open and limited in USPSA and the fastest classifiers I have ever shot (90%) have been on days when I shot open in the morning and limited in the afternoon. Hooser classifiers, granted, but food for thought. I firmly believe that practicing with the dot makes your iron times faster because...

drift off -

when you shoot a dot there is nothing but the dot and the target (especially with a slide mounted dot) so when you switch to irons, there is nothing but the front sight and the target. There is no rear sight, it becomes invisable, muscle memory takes over and when the front sight (the dot) is on the target, you break the shot. I'm convinced that this is why irons on a rifle are so much faster.

[No.343]

My hat's of to Alaskapopo for doing the research that he did. I think that is the right way to do it. However, I don't think we should be asking the question of which system is better at all. I hope that we can have separate divisions for iron and optics. I want the match directors to tell me whether or not there will be future matches where iron sights are recognized. I like to shoot irons, but it would be foolish for me to try and compete with guys shooting optics. Match Directors, please tell me, should I be saving my lunch money, so I can buy an expensive optic and continue shooting. Poor guys like me need to know so we can plan ahead.