Soaring GASOLINE PRICES/ Energy dependent?

[GentlemanJim]

Its all just a part of an plan to force us into alternate fuels and such

Other fuels and technologies are far more expensive or less efficient.

So you have to create a reason to switch.

PS I have tinfoil hats in stock...ready for immediate shipping

Jim

[el pres]

DC,

Shouldn't you be restoring some UBER expensive fossil fuel burning device to it's rightful evil environmentally damaging destiny instead of slumming on an internet forum

Hey, if only the rich can afford to drive then I'm in a good position !!

And with want we charge for our service I can afford to play on the internet !!

Oh crap here comes my boss, I got to go !!

[bountyhunter]

Unbelievable soaring gas prices. WHY????????

Big Oil sets the price of gas where it is for the same reason a dog licks himself:

Just because they can.

The bottom line is they use every excuse in the book to justify it, but it is simple price fixing and gouging. It's not a free market so free market laws dont apply: even if you had a trillion dollars, you couldn't set up a refinery and start making gas. It would take 25 years to get the refinery approved, buuilt, and on line.... and the government is bought and paid for by Big Oil so they would block it anyway.

There is no reason that Big Oil could not drop gas prices to their distributors to ease the damage they are doing to the economy... it would mean their profits would drop from "grossly obscene" to "merely outrageous", but they certainly could do it if they wanted to.

want proof?

Watch as the elction nears... gas will mysteriously start falling and there will be a slew of excuses: cheaper formual, less demand, yadda, yadda, yadda..... but the reason will be the election. Right after it will ramp back up (watch and see).

But the price will be down into the zone of $2.50 - $2.60 national average magically around the election as they try to keep the dems from using it as a major issue in the election. Big Oil knows if the dems get full control their massive government subsidies will get rolled back and they will try hard to keep that from happening.

[bountyhunter]

Why ??

Because people LOVE makeing MONEY !!!

Whether the prices are agreed upon, the refineries are closed on purpose, or drilling is

intentionally derailed (both sides working for same people) !!!! Bottom line is that if

the consumer keeps buying it, the price "CANNOT" go down (supply and DEMAND)...

That's a free market principle which does not apply here. In a free market, high demand and soaring prices would automatically trigger more production and others entering the market to take advantage of the demand to make money, which would either stabilize the price or force it down to a reasonable level.

That can't happen here. The price is fixed at whatever level they perceive is maximum before people are so finacially damaged they are forced to reduce consumption significantly. When gas hit $3 and consumption stayed flat, that ensured the fact we will never see gas stay under $3 again in our lives.

[J-Ho]

PS I have tinfoil hats in stock...ready for immediate shipping

Jim

If I can get one in pink, with a Firebird logo, I'll place an order.

[bountyhunter]

Gasoline inventories are at a 14-year *high*.

If refining capacity is such a bottleneck, why is supply abundant? Why aren't there lines at the pumps? There were MORE refineries in the late 80's than today (219 vs 149).

And CNBC announced that our gasoline EXPORTS were at a record high last month. Does this make any sense to anyone who is not a speculator? Demand is decreasing but prices are increasing.

Bill

That's basically how price fixing works..... the players know where to set the prices to maximize their actual profit. They are not interested in trying to lower prices to gain market share because they know that would eventually lead to lower net profit (less profit on larger volume).

Price fixing is about dividing up the market and colluding to maximize the gouge: just look at OPEC if you want to see it in action.

[el pres]

Unbelievable soaring gas prices. WHY????????

Big Oil sets the price of gas where it is for the same reason a dog licks himself:

Just because they can.

Big Oil knows if the dems get full control their massive government subsidies will get rolled back and they will try hard to keep that from happening.

Totally agree but the market is still free, you dont "have" to drive !! We have allowed ourselfs to be put into this

position by not paying attention to what is going on. When did it happen that monopolies were not agaist the law(huh? the law)

Every major company out there underneath is owned by the same firm or investment group!!!

It's just like all those bogus charges on your phone bill (from any phone company), or excessive bank service charges, funny

how all the banks do it together ?? And other industries are catching on, bullet prices for instance, same bogus story, refining

backlog, some mine went down, etc..etc... And we just keep on taking it and paying whatever they want..

Hey Bounty, didnt we get busted for this before !!!

[spook]

Totally agree but the market is still free, you dont "have" to drive !!

Well, I live in a country that's about the size of NH and VT combined with 16 million citizens and good public transportation. And not having to drive doesn't apply here I can't even imagine not having a car in the US

I know my next car will be one of those funky hybrids!

[chp5]

Whateever the cause of the price increase, we really need to find meaningful alternative fuel instead of making the oil companies and terrorist supporting states who pretend they're our frineds rich (e.g. Saudi Arabia).

[cking]

Bio diesel from sawgrass works and is relatively cheap. Kinda works like a mircobrewery, but then if we started using diesel, farmers and other small groups could make and sell there own fuel. Big oil wouldn't like that. Geothermal around yellowstone could generate alot of electricity but you would have to rebuild our nation electric grid, nobody is interested in that.

My view of the problem is that the long term ill is so much of our money is leaving the country instead of staying hear to build wealth and jobs. If we could cut back just say 20% on our usage the price of fuel would fall by 30%. Most electricity in the country is now generated by coal.

But virtually all shipping from trains, planes, trucks use oil.

[bountyhunter]

Totally agree but the market is still free, you dont "have" to drive !!

No, we are free but the market is not. We are free to change our behavior, but the market is still controlled by a monopoly. I do agree that a severe reduction in consumption is the only thing that could force them to roll down the prices.

When did it happen that monopolies were not agaist the law(huh? the law)

Every major company out there underneath is owned by the same firm or investment group!!!

Actually, monopolies are against the law and some are prosecuted. A number of years back the sugar companies engaged in price fixing right before Xmas to gouge people and they got prosecuted and fined. Oil comapnies and companies like Enron arrogantly engage in monopolistic tactics because they know the government would not dare to prosecute.... because, all they have to do is tighten supply and the gas lines are back and every politician knows what happen then (they get thrown out of office). Just ask Jimmy carter.

And other industries are catching on, bullet prices for instance, same bogus story, refining

backlog, some mine went down, etc..etc... And we just keep on taking it and paying whatever they want..

No argument on that.

Hey Bounty, didnt we get busted for this before !!!

I don't remember if we did, I guess one advantage of getting old and senile.

Cheers

[bountyhunter]

Whateever the cause of the price increase, we really need to find meaningful alternative fuel instead of making the oil companies and terrorist supporting states who pretend they're our frineds rich (e.g. Saudi Arabia).

Agreed. The last president who actually supported alternate energy was carter, he was big for building up nukes to reduce the use of oil (a lot of oil is used for heating). We could have greatly reduced our oil dependency. Look what happened to him....

[raz-0]

I'm with Jim on this one. We haven't built an refinery in the us since the late 70's -early 80's, we are buying some gasoline from foreign countries, yes gas not oil because we can't refine it here [....]

Here an CA a few years ago some enviro group [....]

I remember the first time drilling in Anwar came up in 200-2001 [....]

TMC -

Gasoline inventories are at a 14-year *high*.

If refining capacity is such a bottleneck, why is supply abundant? Why aren't there lines at the pumps? There were MORE refineries in the late 80's than today (219 vs 149).

Gasoline inventories are at a 14-year *high*.

If refining capacity is such a bottleneck, why is supply abundant? Why aren't there lines at the pumps? There were MORE refineries in the late 80's than today (219 vs 149).

And CNBC announced that our gasoline EXPORTS were at a record high last month. Does this make any sense to anyone who is not a speculator? Demand is decreasing but prices are increasing.

Bill

Ok, here's the deal. No we haven't built any new refineries in a while. although in theory we should see a new one soon as they finally sued enough people on the federal payroll to get the approved permits released to the builders.

The number of refineries have been reduced, but overall capacity to refine has been increased.

Second, most of the gasoline price run up previously was due to a botleneck in the refining, and thus a lack of distilates to sell. Low supply high demand. I'll point out that pump prices now are about the same with $100+ per barrel crude prices vs sub $80 barrel crude prices in the past. What's makign everyoe get all complainy is the fact that this should be nearig the low of the season. But....

If you ask people who make money trading in futures that don't have neough money to force a move in the futures markets, they hav eno idea how long this peak will last. Once averaged, it has been a cold year, and demand for heating oil has been high. Not to mention that although the US is looking good for refinery capacity at the moment, global refinery capacity is not doign well vs. global demand. Our consolidated refining base also means we are mroe susceptible to maintenance and down-time issues. Right now, distilate speculation is up for march contracts. This is mostly because it is a sure thing due to the switchover from winter to summer gasoline required by many states. This almsot always causes production capacity to go offline for a brief period and supply to drop.

As for the price of crude, most of the folks who make trading their business seem to think that is all about the strength/weakness of the dollar. Most of the gambling going on is about making a call with regards to our financial news being worse than the rest of the worlds. With the asian market shakedown recently, it was apparant that despite our bad news, the asian markets news was worse. The EU is starting to see their currency issues creep up too. It's musical chairs with the only thing certain is the world bank gave china a big old punch in the face with recalculating the GNP.

[bountyhunter]

I'm with Jim on this one. We haven't built an refinery in the us since the late 70's -early 80's, we are buying some gasoline from foreign countries, yes gas not oil because we can't refine it here [....]

Here an CA a few years ago some enviro group [....]

I remember the first time drilling in Anwar came up in 200-2001 [....]

TMC -

Gasoline inventories are at a 14-year *high*.

If refining capacity is such a bottleneck, why is supply abundant? Why aren't there lines at the pumps? There were MORE refineries in the late 80's than today (219 vs 149).

Gasoline inventories are at a 14-year *high*.

If refining capacity is such a bottleneck, why is supply abundant? Why aren't there lines at the pumps? There were MORE refineries in the late 80's than today (219 vs 149).

And CNBC announced that our gasoline EXPORTS were at a record high last month. Does this make any sense to anyone who is not a speculator? Demand is decreasing but prices are increasing.

Bill

Ok, here's the deal. No we haven't built any new refineries in a while. although in theory we should see a new one soon as they finally sued enough people on the federal payroll to get the approved permits released to the builders.

The number of refineries have been reduced, but overall capacity to refine has been increased.

Second, most of the gasoline price run up previously was due to a botleneck in the refining, and thus a lack of distilates to sell. Low supply high demand. I'll point out that pump prices now are about the same with $100+ per barrel crude prices vs sub $80 barrel crude prices in the past. What's makign everyoe get all complainy is the fact that this should be nearig the low of the season. But....

If you ask people who make money trading in futures that don't have neough money to force a move in the futures markets, they hav eno idea how long this peak will last. Once averaged, it has been a cold year, and demand for heating oil has been high. Not to mention that although the US is looking good for refinery capacity at the moment, global refinery capacity is not doign well vs. global demand. Our consolidated refining base also means we are mroe susceptible to maintenance and down-time issues. Right now, distilate speculation is up for march contracts. This is mostly because it is a sure thing due to the switchover from winter to summer gasoline required by many states. This almsot always causes production capacity to go offline for a brief period and supply to drop.

As for the price of crude, most of the folks who make trading their business seem to think that is all about the strength/weakness of the dollar. Most of the gambling going on is about making a call with regards to our financial news being worse than the rest of the worlds. With the asian market shakedown recently, it was apparant that despite our bad news, the asian markets news was worse. The EU is starting to see their currency issues creep up too. It's musical chairs with the only thing certain is the world bank gave china a big old punch in the face with recalculating the GNP.

But at the end of the day, the CEO of BP or Exxon or any of the rest could say:

"Hey.... the economy is nose diving, energy prices are causing inflation across all sectors, and the average consumer is getting hit so hard they are forced to cut back on essentials... there is no law that says we have to charge the absolute maximum price.

I HEREBY ORDER A 10% REDUCTION IN WHOLESALE PRICES...."

Don't fall off your chair laughing..... I am not saying anyone in any position of power in any sector of the energy industry would ever do such a thing. That would require a conscience..... what they do is mindlessly gouge people to death like Enron did when they colluded to starve Kali for electricity so they could triple our rates and goube $15 Billion out of our state.

That's reality..... but my point is, "supply and demand" doesn't mean jack. Big Oil has the spigot and they set the prices. They could take a miniscule drop in profits to ease the crush on the consumer which is flattening their spending and draing the life out of the economy.

They could.

They won't, but they could.

[smokshwn]

"Hey.... the economy is nose diving, energy prices are causing inflation across all sectors, and the average consumer is getting hit so hard they are forced to cut back on essentials... there is no law that says we have to charge the absolute maximum price.

I HEREBY ORDER A 10% REDUCTION IN WHOLESALE PRICES...."

Don't fall off your chair laughing..... I am not saying anyone in any position of power in any sector of the energy industry would ever do such a thing. That would require a conscience.....

Boy I really wish someone at STARBUCK's would think about a reduction in their $30/gallon coffee....and oh those flat panel TV's are so expensive....hey how come when I MUST EAT out everynight (applebees, chilis, red robin etc.) doesn't someone do something about the cost of food...its a necessity you know.

Supply and demand does play a role...its just that the larger mass of the population has no idea how to prioritize and control their demand of anything...they must have everything and that results in the incredible consumerism problem we are faced with.

All of a sudden when the credit cards are full, rent/mortgage is due and you have to buy some gas to get to work, it is those damn oil companies who are putting the screws to you.

[boo radley]

Boy I really wish someone at STARBUCK's would think about a reduction in their $30/gallon coffee....and oh those flat panel TV's are so expensive....hey how come when I MUST EAT out everynight (applebees, chilis, red robin etc.) doesn't someone do something about the cost of food...its a necessity you know.

Supply and demand does play a role...its just that the larger mass of the population has no idea how to prioritize and control their demand of anything...they must have everything and that results in the incredible consumerism problem we are faced with.

All of a sudden when the credit cards are full, rent/mortgage is due and you have to buy some gas to get to work, it is those damn oil companies who are putting the screws to you.

Those are excellent points. However, the demand for gasoline is largely inelastic, and thus the pain. You do have to get to work, but you don't have to drink Starbuck$, and a plethora of Korean and other Asian manufacturers compete fiercely to drive the prices of wide-screen plasmas and LCD's *down*.

I think Bountyhunter's position is a bit extreme, however I'm not entirely wild about taxpayer subsidies for the industry, either. Let the free market work. I can assure you, I'll never buy another V8/V6 again. On the other hand, don't underwrite exploration costs, etc., with our hard-earned dollars. We pay enough in tax, on a freakin' gallon.

[al503]

Those are excellent points. However, the demand for gasoline is largely inelastic, and thus the pain.

I would agree. However, the mass transit in my area is having to increase their frequency of runs as the rail cars are handling more people than ever. Could be due to many factors but one definitely has to be the price of gas.

[Flexmoney]

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