Retrieving Gun From A Box

[mcoliver]

COF: On start signal retrieve gun from box then engage targets when visible. Gun in condition 4 (mag in person, empty magwell, no chamber load).

The problem was the plastic box was covered and not secured on the table (actually simulated floor of a car's trunk, and you start sitting down in front on the driver's seat). If you flip the lid up from the edge instead of using the handle in the middle of the cover, the box can flip. One shooter did flip it wrong and the empty gun ended up in the floor (not ground) but still facing uprange. Shooter was DQ'ed. Was this the correct call? Prop failure?

What if the gun not only flipped out but also rotated momentarily sweeping uprange then ended up facing down range?

Thanks a lot for your thoughts.

[Vince Pinto]

McOliver,

A match DQ was the correct call. If a gun falls or points uprange for any reason, you're toast. No exceptions.

As you said, there was a handle on top of the box but the guy wanted to be speed demon and flip the lid up from the edge. He took his chances and he paid the price!

[mcoliver]

dang...sigh. Thanks Vince.

[SmittyFL]

I agree with Vince. It was a chance he (you) took to gain a few tenths. At the Area 6 this year they had a stage with a start kinda like the cash n carry classifer. A table with a shelf under it, but there was no back to the shelf. I don't think it happened to anybody but my fear was going after the gun to aggressive and knocking it forward thru the open shelf. Now this was a little different than your situation in that the gun was loaded and it would have been a no question dq. So I opted to grab it a bit more slowly.

That is one of the great things about this game, whether it is grabbing a gun, shooting on the move or engaging a target surrounded by no shoots, everything is risk vs. reward.

[2alpha]

Why allow a stage to have a situation that could cause a major safety violation so easily? Shouldn't stages be designed to make it difficult if not impossible to cause a serious safety violation that would require a contestant to be barred from further competition?

Or maybe, just maybe, are these things done just so someone can be " sent home " proving that the safety system works?

[crazyaboutguns]

The problem may have been induced by deficient design of the range equipment. Did the course of fire instructions stipulate opening the

lid only by means of the handle? On what basis is the assertion made that the competitor was trying to gain a time advantage? That assertion is a rationalization for disqualification, not an objective examination of the issue(s).

Because a disqualification can be issued does not require that one be issued. The information presented in the

posting supports only the premise that if the competitor complied with the course of fire requirements,

that a disqualification due to compliance was the end result. That premise may be within the rules,

but it substitutes dogma for informed reasoning. As such, a disqualification is at best questionable, and the course of

fire should have been immediately halted due to a previously unrecognized safety hazard. Was it?

R. Sparks

[h4444]

2Alpha,,,,

Why??? I'm not trying to be a smart-a$$, but honestly, when you consider the nature of our sport, DQ's are going to happen even on the most simple presentations, so I don't think we can really and truly account for the majority of ways a shooter can DQ on a stage otherwise,,,,USPSA becomes a bullseye shoot.

I saw a glock get knocked off a table on a simple grab and go with no real box,,simply got fumbled, a shooter finger the trigger coming out of their holster and put around in the dirt just a couple feet in front of them,,,,saw another on a speed shoot that had an array that you had to go on your knees,,,,,nevermind,,,,,that one was just stupidity.

Sounds like this only happened to one shooter at the match,,,,if others were struggling with the box and the box itself became a problem time and time again, then you may have to question the safety and maybe consider tossing the stage,,,,,I'm not familiar enough with the rule book to know all the circumstances that must be present for a stage to be thrown out due to safety consideration or whatever,,,,,

but if it were only one shooter that had the problem, then I think DQ is the right call.

H4444

[bgary]

I don't think these things are a conspiracy to "convince everyone that the system works"

Rather, in my experience these are things that are caused by simple details being overlooked. In the first example, running a couple of screws through the bottom of the box into the table-top could easily have prevented the box from flipping, while still ensuring that every shooter faced the same problem.

As 2alpha says, stages should be designed (and built and debugged) in such a way that it is very hard for an "accident" to happen.

Bruce

[Nik Habicht]

While I agree with Bruce's and 2Alpha's comment about properly debugging stages to make it difficult for a DQ to happen, we also don't know if the DQ'd shooter was the first one to shoot that stage in the match, or if he followed a long line of other shooters who managed the stage safely. We play a potentially dangerous game ----- and ultimately it's up to us to ensure that we play it safely. I think that includes noticing wobbly furniture, tight doorways, etc. I'm a large guy, if I ran up against a stage description that reuired me to move through a narrow doorway without touching my gun at the start, there's no question in my mind that I'd take the procedural. It beats the potential alternative. Would I think that the stage could have been better designed? Sure, but we have all kinds and sizes of shooters in the game and we can't design to accomadate every last one of them, every time.

[TDean]

I thought dropping an empty gun was NOT DQ'able.

Is there a rule that specifies dropping an UNLOADED gun during a COF?

[Skywalker]

TDean,

if the gun dropped during the COF, rule 10.3.5 applies:

If at any time during the course of fire, or while loading or unloading, a competitor drops his handgun or causes it to fall, loaded or not, except as follows:

and here it is clearly stated loaded or not, so this cannot be considered a case of dropping an unloaded gun, as provided under 10.3.16.

mcoliver,

rule 10.3.5 should answer your last question too: DQ for dropping the handgun, no matter where and how it ends up (uprange or downrange).

[TDean]

Thanks sky...

[GvU]

TDean,

The empty gun dropped and not dq-ed applies only to a holstertest start in a COF.

If it drops and the competitor doesn't touch the gun he only gets a zero-ed stage. The RO will proceed from the point the gun is on the ground.

If the gun gets dropped outside the COF. No dq, unless you get caught picking it up without aid of a RO. No further consequences to stage results.

John

[Nolan]

I would think this one could be arbitrated. I seem to recall a thread about arbitrating safety DQ's using the defense that the event wasn't unsafe. What's unsafe about an unloaded gun inside a metal car body pointing uprange? Is it any more dangerous than the same empty gun pointing uprange inside a zippered cloth gun rug as the competitor walks up to the stage or the same empty gun laying on the ground outside the course of fire?

[GvU]

Well the rules are clear:

10.3.5 If at any time during the course of fire, or while loading or unloading, a competitor drops his handgun or causes it to fall, loaded or not, except as follows:

10.3.5.1 During a holster test in a course of fire before the handgun has been loaded.

10.1.4.10 In the event that a competitor's handgun falls or drops during the holster test portion of a

course of fire and inside the designated area, the RO will stop the competitor, retrieve the handgun and replace it in the competitor's holster. The competitor shall be allowed to continue in the match or tournament but the scores for the holster test stage shall be recorded as zero. In the event that the competitor touches the holstered handgun during the holster retention test and inside the designated area, the competitor shall be issued one procedural penalty and no further action on the part of the Range Official is required. Note that Rule 10.3.4 does not apply to a dropped unloaded handgun during a holster test while inside the designated area.

10.3.4 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the firearm is loaded or not.

10.3.16 Retrieving a dropped handgun outside a course of fire. Dropping an unloaded firearm is not an infraction. The competitor shall notify a match official who shall assist the competitor and supervise the safe retrieval of the firearm.

Be aware that handling a gun outside the safety area or without supervision of a RO is a safety violation.

Having said this the new proposed rulebook does not cover retention-tests. Meaning any dropped handgun within the course of fire results in DQ. (10.5.3)

John

[BDH]

I would think this one could be arbitrated.  I seem to recall a thread about arbitrating safety DQ's using the defense that the event wasn't unsafe.  What's unsafe about an unloaded gun inside a metal car body pointing uprange?

Nolan, sure you could arbitrate it, but you could also just donate your $100 directly to the NROI as the result would probably be the same. We had a muzzle pointing uprange during a COF, which is a match DQ, period. There is no room for error or interpretation on this one, and I would call it every time.

I had a situation last year at an Area match where someone was having all kinds of gun problems and performed several reloads to try to keep the gun running..... they finally shot the gun dry...... only to realize that they had no more mags left on their belt....... they turned, and went back to pick up a dropped mag, and came very close to breaking the 180 (or 90, sorry VP). Okay, the gun was empty, and the shooter had no more live rounds on them when they turned to go back. So, if the shooter broke the 180 (90), then I suppose we 'could' say that there was nothing really unsafe about this???

Nope, match DQ, period! Safety comes first, and everyone has to take some responsibility for their actions.

One other thing, as far as screwing the box down..... I can go either way on this, and it is hard to call without actually seeing it. On one hand, I can see screwing it down so it doesn't flip over. Makes perfect sense. However, on the other hand, some shooters like the flexibility of being able to position a box right where they want it....

[mcoliver]

However, on the other hand, some shooters like the flexibility of being able to position a box right where they want it....

WHOA! Now that's something to keep in mind for the next match.

[Garfield]

I would think this one could be arbitrated.  I seem to recall a thread about arbitrating safety DQ's using the defense that the event wasn't unsafe.

AFAIK you could ask for arbitration on this one, but not for the DQ itself. The DQ is clear and stands.

But you could ask the arbitration committee to state something about the unsfaety of the act of dropping the gun in this case.

But if my understanding of the rules is correct, this cannot lead to a cancellation of the DQ.