EricW Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Anyone have one of these? http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=100 Not that I question Larue's quality, but I was curious how much better a billet upper was over cast. A noticeable improvement? Or just peace of mind that nothing will ever go wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blkbrd Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 I don't own one but have handled and shot some. Fit and finish is typical perfect LaRue, as is price. It has the same appearance as a normal mil speck upper that 50 companies label as their own. As to strength, have you ever heard of an upper breaking or the accuracy being affected by flex, except in advertising or from a mall ninja on AR15.com? It does not have the trick forged machined billet look of a JP CTR02, Sun Devil, Tactical Innovations or a host of others. It is a LaRue, and as such the best of its kind, and I have no doubt the heat treat and finish are first rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbs007 Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 (edited) Anyone have one of these? http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=100 Not that I question Larue's quality, but I was curious how much better a billet upper was over cast. A noticeable improvement? Or just peace of mind that nothing will ever go wrong? In reference to the receiver only: The quality of the receiver is by far the best I've seen, the finish alone is outstanding. I've tried it on different lowers and the fit is right on. LaRue beefed up everything around the ejection port, something about to reduce flex when firing. Check out the logs for the ejection port rod. Perfectly dimensioned and squared in front as claimed by a custom builder. Edited February 9, 2008 by norbs007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpeltier Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 I got one with a certificate from A-6 3-gun tournament. Side by side with my Mil-std recievers there is a noticible "Beefyness" (is that a real word) to the LaRue. Quality (as with everything LaRue) is outstanding. I fastened a WOA barrel to it and added a Titanium carrier and it now is my most accurate AR15. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 I read up a lot on this & the other high dollar, billit uppers. For our sport, I came to the conclusion that these have to all be considered: -fashion accesories. Are there tests showing a minute variance in accuracy over a mil-spec upper? Yeah - apparently there's a gnat's butt of difference. But the extra $$$ spent on a Larue upper could also have been used to upgrade to a JP, Lilja, Kreiger, or Rock barrel which would probably yield more accuracy and a LOT more accuracy per $$ spent. I am not knocking LaRue - his throw lever mounts appear to the best ones made for repeatable zero mounting. But his upper & all the other "fashion" uppers are priced at 3 to 4 times the cost of a part that works 99.99% as well (even if it does not look as "cool"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted February 11, 2008 Author Share Posted February 11, 2008 I really didn't think there would be an accuracy improvement. I was really more thinking about barrel to upper fit, upper to lower fit. Carrier ride in the upper, etc. I believe that JP fits it's barrels to the upper so that it's pretty much a line to line fit between the two. I didn't know if Larue did the same. Larue's price for a finished upper certainly isn't out of line considering the price of JP's offerings, IMO. BTW, does anybody have the latest read on whether it's legal to use an M16 carrier in a non-Class III rifle? The last word I heard from ATF on the subject was that any rifle with a full-auto part, regardless of what it was, was classified as a machine gun. I'm just not sure if I decide to drop the dime on an upper, if I shouldn't go with an AR-15 style carrier to be safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 BTW, does anybody have the latest read on whether it's legal to use an M16 carrier in a non-Class III rifle? The last word I heard from ATF on the subject was that any rifle with a full-auto part, regardless of what it was, was classified as a machine gun. I'm just not sure if I decide to drop the dime on an upper, if I shouldn't go with an AR-15 style carrier to be safe. Bushmaster and several other current manufacturers have been shipping thier guns with full auto carriers for a few years now. It was a surprise to me, but I saw it even on guns bought by friends up in Maryland. Apparently, if the carrier is the only part in common with a class III gun, then .gov is not interested. I am personally interested in lighter weight carriers for our game; I might just seek out a used Colt "C" carrier or take the mill to an old carrier & see how it works. Regards, D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 If you plan to mill a carrier, get the best carbide cutters you can afford to sacrifice. Carriers are surface-hardened harder than sin, and they'll eat anything else. Better yet, find someone with a surface grinder who is willing to experiment. As for the M-16 carrier, repeated letters to the ATFE get returned with the same result: First they acknowledge receipt of the letter and question. Then they quote the law, which concerns itself with "parts to convert" or "rifles that fire more than one round per actuation of the trigger" and then conclude one should not own either a conversion kit or a rifle that fires more than one shot. They steadfastly refuse to say how many parts are too many, and if some parts are more "evil" than others. My conclusion is that they don't give a fart about the carrier, and as long as your rifle shoots only one shot they won't be interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 If you plan to mill a carrier, get the best carbide cutters you can afford to sacrifice. Carriers are surface-hardened harder than sin, and they'll eat anything else.Better yet, find someone with a surface grinder who is willing to experiment. Thanks Pat! I knew they were hard, but I did not realize they were "destroy what's left of a worn carbide mill" hard (ie - really stinking hard!). D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted February 12, 2008 Author Share Posted February 12, 2008 Thanks Patrick X2!! That's pretty much what I thought on the Class III, but it's tough to know what is and isn't interesting these days. My thought on the carrier was to do the rough work on a bench grinder, then clean it up on a surface grinder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 I did my carrier on a lathe. The carbide inserts were indexed and replaced a few times. A 1/2" carbide ball burr was used to remove a little more material on the back side of the carrier. They ARE HARD! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redmercury2 Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 derrick martin refers to an upper breaking in his book on the AR ,IT IS POSSIBLE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastshooter03 Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 Yes the standard A3 upper is a little thin in some areas and maybe a little oversize in the carrier dimension but how much do you need for 3-gun. The Larue ad says they were thinking of 3/4" 100 yd groups. My dpms 20" bull cut down to 17" and lightened under the handguard will do that and better easily with a 5 power scope and 55 blitzkings and I haven't even tried 69 mkgs yet. My test group from my new 17" Broughten non broken-in barreled A3 upper was .525" CTC at 100 with 50 grn bltzkngs. I wouldn't mind having a matched billet upper AND lower but is it really neccessary? Only if you've got the money to spend on it. I saw a couple of manufacturers at the Shot Show that had billet lowers but I haven't checked into it to see it they make them with matching billet uppers. Confidence in your equipment can mean a lot. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austinwft Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 One major consideration not mentioned of the LaRue Stealth Billet Receiver, as well as others such as the JP, is that the carrier bore is perfectly straight and parallel to the top rail and more importantly perfectly square to the receiver extension face. Broken receivers may not be common place but broken bolts are certainly not unheard of and can result from misalignment of the barrel to the receiver bore. Over the past 4-5 years I have assembled quite a few uppers from stripped receivers as well as disassembled and reassembled factory production complete uppers and have found the average "run of the mill" receivers, regardless of physical appearance and manufacturer, are held to some of the poorest dimensional standards and specs you will see in the firearms industry. Could be why Brownells sells an " AR-15/M16 UPPER RECEIVER LAPPING TOOL ". I have also mounted a large and varied number of optics to these receivers over the years and have found that these out of square bores as well as commonly out of spec receiver rails often required the optic to be zeroed at the outer limit of its windage and/or elevation travel and in a few cases not able to be zeroed at all. This receiver was disassembled from a complete COLT production rifle. FWIW and IMHO I can not see how anyone would consider these premium quality receivers to be - Fashion Accessories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 (edited) Thanks for the pic Austinwtf! Everyone: Quick word of explanation: the photo above shows what appears to be a machinist's surface plate - which is usually made of granite and is ground as flat as possible. The other piece is a machinist's square and though its too corroded to tell, it could well be a Starrett brand (which is known to be of very high precision). What does this show us about the upper pictured? Either: 1) the bore is off center or 2) the top rail is out of spec or 3) a combination of both caused the gap (which may or may not be very large). Specifiying that this is a Colt upper seems to imply: "Colt is the best 'mil-spec' upper and even a COLT can be off!" - that, however, is only a valid premise if you believe the legends surrounding the Colt brand. In any event, what is left out of this attempt to demonstrate that our current uppers are defective is: was the rifle inaccurate? If our uppers are machined as poorly as is suggested, then how is it possible that they most often group under an inch with quality ammunition and an appropriate optic? A: it would not be possible. Except - the average AR manages excellent accuracy. - without a $300 upper that is. As to broken bolts, from what I can tell, it tends to be limited to certain brands more than certain uppers. I don't believe anyone has ever demonstrated a correlation between bolt breakage and the tolerance of the upper (nor do I believe a single photo demonstrates that hypothesis). In addition, as I explained in my original post, there might be a gnat's butt of difference in demonstrated accuracy with a billet upper; it might even matter to those types who regularly lob VLDs out to 1000 yards through their AR-15s. But, the supposedly deffective uppers we are currently using have proven MORE than adequate for the distances we actaully encounter in USPSA 3gun: roughly 300 yards down to arm's length. Given that our $80 uppers accomplish the task assigned, the response fails to demonstrate the benefit of an upper costing more than three times the price. Unless, of course, one adds to the list of requirements: "must be fashionable." Regards, D. PS - just curious, is Austin TX anywhere near Leander, TX? Edited February 13, 2008 by Carlos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted February 13, 2008 Author Share Posted February 13, 2008 What if the 3X upper saves me a 2nd trip to the range and endless frustration because I couldn't zero my optic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Precision billet uppers ..offer more than looks! A YUGO will get you to the prom But the pretty girls ...come home with me in the Hotrod Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastshooter03 Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Don't forget about lowers too. I work in a machine shop that isn't really gun friendly but I do get to do a couple things for myself. One of them is modifying stock triggers. I made a stainless fixture to the blueprint specs on hole spacing, etc, blah, blah. The best I can get a stock trigger down to is about 3 lbs with RP springs and short pull and reset. But the biggest problem I've found is the stinkin lowers out there are all over the place with their hole spacing! It's not uncommon for me to try 3-4 of my trigger/hammer sets before I get one to work in a persons lower when they all worked fine in my fixture. And then those same sets that didn't work in that guys lower all worked in the next guys lower. The tolerance specs for the hole positioning and size was somewhere around .0015" to .003" plus or minus(I can't remember right now). At one time I had the number to measure hole to hole to see how far off any particular lower was. In today's age of CNC milling machines and high performance tooling it should be a walk in the park to hit the blueprint specs right on the nose. But enter the high production quantity operator. He/She probably doesn't give a crap about what is being made and for whom. The name of the game is how many pcs per hour can you get out the door. Why change a dull cutter if it's going to cut into your rate per hour? They're only checking tolerances every 10, 25, 50, maybe 100pcs. Not in spec but pretty close "Ahh ship it anyways. See if they catch it". So It doesn't surprise me when I hear DPMS or somebody rejected a shipment of lowers. It happens in the machining world. It doesn't matter how well a part is designed if the manufacturer/operator can't get it right. The best you can hope for is a shop that is dedicated to doing the job right no matter what. So my point is hopefully these billet lower/upper manufacturers are doing a lot better job at getting their tolerances correct which helps the overall fit, function, etc, etc. Smaller quantity numbers means larger $$$. Maybe that's why JP stuff is so popular. I only make my own stuff because I have the means to and I can't afford cool stuff like JP's, Larue's, ETC right now. Maybe when I start beating the likes of Jerry Miculek and Tony Holmes I'll be noticed and pick up a bunch of sponsors that'll pay for me to have fun. Maybe I'll win the lottery too! It's very simple. If you can afford it and you want it--get it! If you can't afford it but want it--just use what you got until that happy day comes when you can get it. If you don't want it--don't worry about it. Unless you're jealous that is Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGDM Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 Just remember, you get what you pay for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGDM Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 PS - just curious, is Austin TX anywhere near Leander, TX? Yep, Leander is just north of Austin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahtsay Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 Hi I'm a rifle newbie trying to learn as much as I can before I set up a rifle for IPSC. The Larue Upper is said to be "no M4 feedramps". What does this mean? I thought the feed ramps are supposed to be on the barrel and not the upper? Does this mean you can't use this upper with a barrel that has M4 feedramps? Thanks in advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ERIC Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 M4 ramps are on both the barrel and upper. It's OK to use a barrel with M4 ramps and an upper without them. It's not OK to use an upper with M4 ramps and a barrel without them because that combination creates a step where the tip of the round could get stuck as it feeds. If you must have a billet upper and both upper and barrel with M4 ramps, Vltor makes a billet upper with M4 ramps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahtsay Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 thanks Eric! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick S Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 You can get Larue Billet Uppers w/ M4 cuts. Take care. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbs007 Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 You can get Larue Billet Uppers w/ M4 cuts.Take care. Nick +1 Try Global Tactical they have the M4 cuts for $249. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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