Course Design

[Flexmoney]

This isn't really a rules question as much as it is a design question. But, since we shut down the cooper tunnel thread...lets get it started here (we may move it later).

Do stage designers take these aspects of course design into account as much as they should ??

CHAPTER 1: Course Design

The following general principles of course design list the criteria, responsibilities and restrictions governing course designers as the architects of the sport of USPSA shooting.

1.1 General Principles

1.1.1 Safety – USPSA matches must be designed, constructed and conducted with due consideration to safety.

1.1.2 Quality – The value of an USPSA match is determined by the quality of the challenge presented in the course design. Courses of fire must be designed primarily to test a competitor’s USPSA shooting skills, not their physical abilities.

1.1.3 Balance – Accuracy, Power and Speed are equivalent elements of USPSA shooting, and are expressed in the Latin words “Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas” (“DVC”). A properly balanced course of fire will depend largely upon the nature of the challenges presented therein, however, courses must be designed, and USPSA matches must be conducted in such a way, as to evaluate these elements equally.

1.1.4 Diversity – USPSA shooting challenges are diverse. While it is not necessary to construct new courses for each match, no single course of fire must be repeated to allow its use to be considered a definitive measure of USPSA shooting skills.

1.1.5 Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis. Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position, location or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created,

and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances.

1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes and specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged, and may specify mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only (not in a long course).

1.1.5.2 Standard Exercises and Classifiers may include mandatory reloads and may dictate a shooting position, location or stance.

1.1.5.3 Standard Exercises and Classifiers may specify shooting with the strong hand or weak hand unsupported. The specified hand must be used exclusively from the point stipulated for the remainder of the string or stage.

1.1.5.4 Medium or Long courses of fire may stipulate the use of either strong or weak hand, provided that only one hand, either strong or weak, is specified for no more than the last six (6) shots required.

1.1.5.5 Acourse of fire which, through the use of props, requires a competitor to shoot both strong-hand-only and weak-hand-only must not require that the shooter transition directly from one to the other. The course of fire must provide movement and unencumbered freestyle target engagement between the two.

1.1.6 Difficulty – USPSA matches present varied degrees of difficulty. No shooting challenge or time limit may be appealed as being prohibitive. This does not apply to nonshooting challenges, which should reasonably allow for differences in competitor’s height and physical build.

1.1.7 Challenge – USPSA Handgun matches recognize the difficulty of using full power handguns in dynamic shooting, and must always employ a minimum caliber and power level to be attained by all competitors to reflect this challenge.

1.1.8 Scenarios and Stage Props — The use of scenarios and reasonable stage props is encouraged. Care must be exercised, however, to avoid unrealistic non-shooting requirements which detract from the shooting challenge and/or may expose competitors to potentially unsafe conditions.

[Ron Ankeny]

Grrrrr.....argh....why don't you just open a can of virtual worms?

Yes, our club follows the rules and principles of course design. Unfortunately, I see a lot of clubs just toss the rulebook in the trash and go with "local flavor". Frankly, I think it's time for USPSA to step up to the plate and intervene when clubs publish courses of fire for State Level matches that do not pass muster.

[LPatterson]

Ron, according to Appendix A, item 10, Level II matches must have the COF's submitted to NROI & the Area Director. So USPSA is intervening if the clubs send the COF's with the 1 month advance notification as required. The problem is how to make sure level II match requirements are being met. Perhaps a letter to the club that is required to be posted stating that the match meets all requirements of a USPSA sanctioned match.

[Jim Norman]

OK, Hypotheticaly I run a State Level Match. I draw up 8 really sweet stages.I send them in to USPSA, They are approved.

Now, I build the stages. A few walls are not quite in the same place, a few targets are placed differently and due the height of a couple berms, I have a problem letting shooters just shoot a particluar target array from just anywhere. I have to make you shoot a this array ONLY from a specific point.

What happens is I now have a Level 1 exemption situation that cannot be applied in a Level 2 match. HQ will only know if I or one of the many shooters tells them, The match has been run, the props put away. Everyone had fun. All but the two people that decided that my telling them that three pieces of steel had to be engaged from a particular point. They create a firestorm.

What do we do?

Jim

[JThompson]

OK, Hypotheticaly I run a State Level Match. I draw up 8 really sweet stages.I send them in to USPSA, They are approved.

Now, I build the stages. A few walls are not quite in the same place, a few targets are placed differently and due the height of a couple berms, I have a problem letting shooters just shoot a particluar target array from just anywhere. I have to make you shoot a this array ONLY from a specific point.

What happens is I now have a Level 1 exemption situation that cannot be applied in a Level 2 match. HQ will only know if I or one of the many shooters tells them, The match has been run, the props put away. Everyone had fun. All but the two people that decided that my telling them that three pieces of steel had to be engaged from a particular point. They create a firestorm.

What do we do?

Jim

Jim's right. When is the last time you looked at a matchbook and the stages were the same? Everything looks good on paper, but is not the same in practice for a number of reasons. We have to be flexable to an extent. You have to balance one thing with another.

Edited February 9, 2008 by JThompson

[MichiganShootist]

I'd like to chime in on a couple points

1."Courses of fire must be designed primarily to test a competitor’s USPSA shooting skills, not their physical abilities."

As a 5'8" super senior with spinal arthritis.... I can tell you that many stages are much more of the test of physical abilities that shooting abilities. I'm not sure what the solution is... but stages like at the SS Nationals last year which include running up and down stairs and shooting through ports 18" - 24" off the ground clearly put many shooters at a serious disadvantage which has nothing to do with actual shooting. In that same vain when used there always needs to be multiple ports so that shooters of various physical size can make the shots required.

2. "may not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position"

Making shooters fire from a seated position and the like is common practice and I would say that violates the "No dictating shooting position rule. If the start position is seated... the shooter should always have the option to make the shots seated or to stand and shoot if they wish. That is often NOT the case.

3. " Accuracy, Power and Speed are equivalent elements"

Course desginers should take a closer look at achieving this balance. I shot in a Sectional last year where at least 90% of the targets were fully exposed paper at distances which rarely exceeded 30 feet. It was fun run and gun stuff... but did it test accuracy... not really

Just 2 cents from an old fart.

Edited February 8, 2008 by MichiganShootist

[Jim Norman]

There are ways to compel a shooter to shoot seated. One is to make you fasten a "seatbelt" we have done this siply by providing a piece of belting htat had to remain across the shooters lap while shooting. We have placed a "roof" over the shooter's head. You can't stand up and you have no choice as the targets are only visible from the seated position.

Now the above stated. WHY? I have had to create special props and spend considerable additional timme to build a stage as opposed to saying, "You are seated in your car. Retrieve your Handgun and engage the targets as they become visible through the passenger window" If all I say is this and the "Car" is simply a chair behind a table that serves as the dashboard, the shooter is free to stand up and shoot. I have to add props. Why can't we agree that at times telling you you have to stay seated for targets T1-T3 is an acceptable practice?

As for placing ports at mutliple heights to allow for older, taller, shoorter, more or less flexible shooters to engage a particluar target. Why bother having a port or a wall? Just put a box on the ground. If a port runs from ground to 6-0 is it really a port? Who would stoop to shoot through it? I understand that sometimes a port is difficult, more for someo n some days than for others, but if we just put a 6-0 high slot in the wall, no one will ever squat again. Sadly, and happily this sport requires a degree of physical ability as well as the ability to place your shots. I have had to skip a couple matches due to my back. I probably could have shot benchrest .22 rifle last month, but I sure couldn't shoot USPSA. Should my club have been made to modify all the stages so I could shoot everything standing erect? I hope it never comes to that!

Jim

[AlamoShooter]

Jim With your "Few" shooters What about the overly polite tactic. = tell them " Its clear you are not happy and we do not want any one to be unhappy" SO! Since we can not make you happy please do not come back, unless you are absolutely positive that you will be satisfied before you sign up.

I had to use that a few times with business When someone wanted something that no one could deliver. So I was not going to spend my time pricing it for them. ... I call it the " Just No way I can make you happy" Claws

Or If you don't think you can be Happy and play the game nice, don't sign up

OK Ron is rite post at1:52= I have to add that this in not a solution for a state /or/ level II match.

Edited February 8, 2008 by AlamoShooter

[RogerT]

In my experience it's still a good idea to have stage designs approved before match day, when it comes to level 2 matches. For level 1 matches that's not necessary.

Even if the built stage in real life don't always look like the design, someone else has rewieved the basic idea and principle of the stage, and believe me, not all stage designers are that seasoned as the crowd on this forum.

Things like the written stage briefing is one thing that many times need rewriting to comply with the rules, the use of fault lines and charge lines is another area where new stage designers need guidance.

[caspian guy]

One answer to the port height problem is to put in 2 ports one low one high. It IS more trouble and it isn't a perfect solution for everyone but it does seem to work better. Or use a slot? I am afraid that many designers myself included can become guilty of what someone on here called, "taking the shooting boxes off the ground and putting them in the wall" when USPSA started emphasising freestyle more.

Edited February 8, 2008 by caspian guy

[MichiganShootist]

Two ports works great for tall and shorter shooters. They must take about 60 seconds each to mke with a sabre saw.

The rules are clear.... unless it's a standards stage then the shooting should be FREESTYLE.

[Ron Ankeny]

First off, I am talking about "State Matches". I have seen courses at state matches that are hose fests requiring the shooter to move from box to box with 10 rounds required from each position. I have seen state courses of fire that used split poppers to represent two targets. I have seen state matches with long courses that exceed the 32 round limit and require up to 12 rounds from one position. As MD, what do you do? There is only one choice. If a shooter protests an illegal stage, you make it right and re-shoot or you pull it from the results. Now, suppose there is a state match that has 3-4 illegal stages out of 10. Why would I risk driving half way across the west to shoot the match when I know someone could have the stages tossed?

As for local clubs. I just shoot. I have shot stages that have a piece of tape down the middle of a target with different colors on each side. The shooter is required to shoot one color from one spot and the other color from another spot. I shot a 32 round "field course" with four shooting positions. The course was a memory course. All targets were visible from all four positions, but the targets and positions were specified. There was nothing intutive about the layout. No one in the match shot the correct targets from the correct positions. Courses like that are just plain stupid, period.

I too have found problems in local stages when we were short handed and short on time. As a last resort, we will invoke one of the level one exemptions, but the course must remain "legal". I have no issue with the utilization of level one exemptions when required.

As far as a match director asking a shooter who protests not to return when a Level II match isn't a level II??? You guys just gotta be kidding.

[Sandro]

This isn't really a rules question as much as it is a design question. But, since we shut down the cooper tunnel thread...lets get it started here (we may move it later).

Do stage designers take these aspects of course design into account as much as they should ??

CHAPTER 1: Course Design

The following general principles of course design list the criteria, responsibilities and restrictions governing course designers as the architects of the sport of USPSA shooting.

1.1 General Principles

1.1.1 Safety – USPSA matches must be designed, constructed and conducted with due consideration to safety.

1.1.2 Quality – The value of an USPSA match is determined by the quality of the challenge presented in the course design. Courses of fire must be designed primarily to test a competitor’s USPSA shooting skills, not their physical abilities.

1.1.3 Balance – Accuracy, Power and Speed are equivalent elements of USPSA shooting, and are expressed in the Latin words “Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas” (“DVC”). A properly balanced course of fire will depend largely upon the nature of the challenges presented therein, however, courses must be designed, and USPSA matches must be conducted in such a way, as to evaluate these elements equally.

1.1.4 Diversity – USPSA shooting challenges are diverse. While it is not necessary to construct new courses for each match, no single course of fire must be repeated to allow its use to be considered a definitive measure of USPSA shooting skills.

1.1.5 Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis. Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position, location or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created,

and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances.

1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes and specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged, and may specify mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only (not in a long course).

1.1.5.2 Standard Exercises and Classifiers may include mandatory reloads and may dictate a shooting position, location or stance.

1.1.5.3 Standard Exercises and Classifiers may specify shooting with the strong hand or weak hand unsupported. The specified hand must be used exclusively from the point stipulated for the remainder of the string or stage.

1.1.5.4 Medium or Long courses of fire may stipulate the use of either strong or weak hand, provided that only one hand, either strong or weak, is specified for no more than the last six (6) shots required.

1.1.5.5 Acourse of fire which, through the use of props, requires a competitor to shoot both strong-hand-only and weak-hand-only must not require that the shooter transition directly from one to the other. The course of fire must provide movement and unencumbered freestyle target engagement between the two.

1.1.6 Difficulty – USPSA matches present varied degrees of difficulty. No shooting challenge or time limit may be appealed as being prohibitive. This does not apply to nonshooting challenges, which should reasonably allow for differences in competitor’s height and physical build.

1.1.7 Challenge – USPSA Handgun matches recognize the difficulty of using full power handguns in dynamic shooting, and must always employ a minimum caliber and power level to be attained by all competitors to reflect this challenge.

1.1.8 Scenarios and Stage Props — The use of scenarios and reasonable stage props is encouraged. Care must be exercised, however, to avoid unrealistic non-shooting requirements which detract from the shooting challenge and/or may expose competitors to potentially unsafe conditions.

To answer your question, I don’t think many people “I know of” take ALL these parameters in consideration every time they build a stage. I believe it has something to do with the fact most of us have different points of view about our rules. Also, you will find that most people interpret the same rules differently. A good example of what I am saying was the course of fire from the 2007 Limited Nationals where you had to carry a tool box in “luggage carry fashion”. Talk about controversy…

The point is unless you’re green to the sport you the shooters know what was intended when the course was designed. Not an issue but the challenge is how you keep the gamers doing what they do best….

I went to a non affiliated USPSA match once “rifle” match I think, and a similar controversy came up. I don’t remember the details of the issue but the match director laid it out very clear, this is how you’re shooting and that of course stopped the issue. What stayed in my mind was a comment in the back ground sort of like - (You IPSC shooters)… it has to be perfect otherwise you can’t shoot it? You get the point… Safe is always my first concern, 180 traps, distance to steel, angle of each shot etc. I also like to make people take advantage of the distance in the range and experience shooting long shoots in a match condition, shooting on the move, making targets with hard cover so you have to learn trigger control and sometimes mix it with something else outside of shoot 8 from this position and 8 shots from that position. It is not the quantity, it is the challenge in making every shot that makes a stage good as well as how to negotiate each position.

SC

[bigsaxdog]

OK, Hypotheticaly I run a State Level Match. I draw up 8 really sweet stages.I send them in to USPSA, They are approved.

Now, I build the stages. A few walls are not quite in the same place, a few targets are placed differently and due the height of a couple berms, I have a problem letting shooters just shoot a particluar target array from just anywhere. I have to make you shoot a this array ONLY from a specific point.

What happens is I now have a Level 1 exemption situation that cannot be applied in a Level 2 match. HQ will only know if I or one of the many shooters tells them, The match has been run, the props put away. Everyone had fun. All but the two people that decided that my telling them that three pieces of steel had to be engaged from a particular point. They create a firestorm.

What do we do?

Jim

Jim's right. When is the last time you looked at a matchbook and the stages were the same? Everything looks good on paper, but is not the same in practice for a number of reasons. We have to be flexable to an extent. You have to balance one thing with another. If we try to make everything absolute there would be very few COfs that would pass muster. If you make a level one so much of a pain in the ass for the few that are doing it.... you will likely see less and less club willing to run them. I know some people who take a day off to set a COF only to have some people who rarely, if ever, help; bitch up a storm about this or that. Shoot the damn thing and have fun... If you don't like the stage design... get off your ass and help make them better, but don't bitch about it when it's to late to do anything about it. If it's about safety then go ahead and say somthing, but if it's about the COF in general, shut up and shoot!

exactly the problem and the correct solution!!!

[professor]

To follow the rules, you have to follow the rules. No more Level I exemptions to the rules.

That said, our club has the time and the experienced shooters to set up the stages and check for problems the day before the monthly match. Some things might have to be changed to prevent shoot-throughs or to meet the max # of shots required from a shooting location. We've eliminated the gross problems like split poppers by not having them available at the range. After some 'discussions', the stage designers know not to try and make multiple targets out of a single target using tape dividers. It wasn't always so, and we had some course designers who just "wanted to make the stage 'interesting.'"

Safety is always the main concern, and that means paying attention to distances for engaging steel, watching for shootthroughs to steel, and watching for situations that might cause bullets to skip over the berms after going through targets.

[Flexmoney]

OK, Hypotheticaly I run a State Level Match. I draw up 8 really sweet stages.I send them in to USPSA, They are approved.

Now, I build the stages. A few walls are not quite in the same place, a few targets are placed differently and due the height of a couple berms, I have a problem letting shooters just shoot a particluar target array from just anywhere. I have to make you shoot a this array ONLY from a specific point.

What happens is I now have a Level 1 exemption situation that cannot be applied in a Level 2 match. HQ will only know if I or one of the many shooters tells them, The match has been run, the props put away. Everyone had fun. All but the two people that decided that my telling them that three pieces of steel had to be engaged from a particular point. They create a firestorm.

What do we do?

Jim

You fix it. So that it is legal. Even if you have to change the stage.

If not, here is how your hypothetical plays out. Your setup crew works their butts off. Your staff works their butts off. On the last day of the match, after running 200 shooters through the cof...the last squad shows up. They notice that your stage isn't legal. They arb the stage...and win, because they are right...an you lose the stage (after all that work).

[wide45]

You fix it. So that it is legal. Even if you have to change the stage.

That is right.

Ever heard of an illegal stage being taken to Arb? I have not. Nobody wants to be the hard ass.

[Gary Stevens]

I am sometimes tasked with approving Level 2 and Level 3 matches for NROI. The main thing I am looking for is that the course conforms with the rules. Sometimes it is a little hard to tell from the drawing as to how many targets are going to be available from a single position or if some of them are going to be available from another position. When in doubt I contact the MD and we talk about it.

The courses when they get on the ground might have to be adjusted a bit, and that is not a problem. A shoot through or safety issue can be fixed after approval of the stage. What must remain though is that the stage remain a "legal" stage. To do otherwise is to abandon everything we have worked for over many years. Honest mistakes will be made, but when they are pointed out, they should be corrected.

As we continue to teach RO classes and to train RM's I hope this problem becomes just a bad memory. The only way that will work though is for each of us to actually care. If it means arbitrating an illegal stage then that is what has to be done to maintain the integrity of the sport. If it means NROI/USPSA withdrawing the sanctioning of the match over illegal stages then that also is what must be done.

Every effort should be made to correct the situation, but shooters need to know that USPSA rules apply in every match that carries the sanction of NROI/USPSA. To do otherwise is to do damage to our sport.

Gary

[LPatterson]

To follow the rules, you have to follow the rules. No more Level I exemptions to the rules.

That said, our club has the time and the experienced shooters to set up the stages and check for problems the day before the monthly match. Some things might have to be changed to prevent shoot-throughs or to meet the max # of shots required from a shooting location. We've eliminated the gross problems like split poppers by not having them available at the range. After some 'discussions', the stage designers know not to try and make multiple targets out of a single target using tape dividers. It wasn't always so, and we had some course designers who just "wanted to make the stage 'interesting.'"

Safety is always the main concern, and that means paying attention to distances for engaging steel, watching for shootthroughs to steel, and watching for situations that might cause bullets to skip over the berms after going through targets.

Since it is a rule (1.1.5.1) I guess it is not an exception for Level I use to say that shooting boxes may be used to dictate a certain position/location and where and when certain arrays may be shot from. Max number of shots per position is misleading as the rule only says MUST NOT REQUIRE (1.2.1.2 & 1.2.1.3) more than 8 scoring hits from any single location nor allow the shooter to shoot all targets from a single location. If I have 2 arrays of 4 targets each but allow you to get in some contortion to shoot 7 from 1 location, I am still within the rules.