Classifier Question

[DancesWithSquirrels]

Does anyone know the reasoning behind why IDPA requires you to shoot the classifier over again for every division you want to be classified in even if you will be using the same gun? If I shoot a DA/SA .45 ACP I can use it in SSP, ESP and CDP if I am willing to live with the advantages or disadvantages of the gun in each of those divisions and adhere to the division magazine capacity. There is no string in the classifier which requires the loading of more than 6 rounds at a time so division magazine capacity does not even come into play. So why won't they allow someone to shoot the classifier once and use their time to get a classification in each of the pistol divisions? In some areas classifiers don't come around too often and it could take a while to get classified in all 3 divisions.

DWS

[Merlin Orr]

Should you get an FTDR for asking this question....

It really does look like you should be able to use your (heavy/large caliber classification) when you shoot a heavier caliber gun in divisions usually shot with a gun of lesser recoil/easier to control.

[nwb01]

Page 72 of the rule book states :

A competitor may compete in club matches in a division he does

not have a classification in, provided he competes in the highest

classification he presently holds. Shooters may not go down in

classification except for permanent physical disability or for other

irrevocable reasons. IDPA HQ will determine this. When

shooting the classifier for different divisions, you must shoot a

separate classification match for each division you wish to

compete in, even if you use the same gun.

So, If you want to shoot another division but have not been classified in that division, you shoot your highest classification regardless. However, at some point you will have to shoot a classifier for that division in order to shoot a major match I do believe.

[SDM]

I would bet it's been done before. I could see this being done by match directors.

(I'm not advising you do this nor am I accusing anyone)

[Joe4d]

Your asking for reasoning in an IDPA rule ?

This is actually one of the few rules that uses the word must instead of should, encouraged too, or some other flim flam word.

[et45]

John May said Bill Wilson told him the rule book was "flexible"and that statement was printed in the TJ a couple or so issues back.But back to the topic last year at the classifier match a shooter used a Glock 34 and shot twice in ESP and SSP.The time on his ESP score sheet was faster than the SSP and in fact would have been SSP Master.I told him after the match he should have asked to swap the scores around as he really wanted to make and refer to himself as a "MASTER SHOOTER".I found it amusing because he takes himself so seriously.

Edited January 9, 2008 by et45

[p99shooter]

An individual classifier for each division should be shot, even if you are using the same gun, because of the different starting conditions for each division.

SSP: Hammer down, no safety

ESP and CDP: cocked and locked.

If I shoot a DA/SA .45 ACP I can use it in SSP, ESP and CDP if . . .

If you shot the classifier cocked and locked, your score it not legal for an SSP classification. If you shoot it with a hammer-down start condition for each string, you're score for an ESP or CDP classifier doesn't truly represent what you would have gotten compared to a cocked and locked start.

For Glocks and other safe-action type pistols . . . You would think it would save a lot of time. You'd still have to shoot a 165 PF for a CDP classifier. Would you want to have to shoot 165 PF or more for your SSP and ESP classifier scores too?

[gringop]

Does anyone know the reasoning behind why IDPA requires you to shoot the classifier over again for every division you want to be classified in even if you will be using the same gun? If I shoot a DA/SA .45 ACP I can use it in SSP, ESP and CDP if I am willing to live with the advantages or disadvantages of the gun in each of those divisions and adhere to the division magazine capacity. There is no string in the classifier which requires the loading of more than 6 rounds at a time so division magazine capacity does not even come into play. So why won't they allow someone to shoot the classifier once and use their time to get a classification in each of the pistol divisions? In some areas classifiers don't come around too often and it could take a while to get classified in all 3 divisions.

DWS

Because the ranking for the different divisions are not the same. If you shot 120 seconds in SSP you would be an Expert, in ESP and CDP 120 seconds would be a Sharpshooter. Why should you get to sandbag in ESP and CDP just because you shoot a gun that is legal in all 3? If you shoot Expert in SSP you should be shooting against experts in CDP and ESP.

It's not about what is the easiest, it's about earning your classification fair and square and competing against others at your ability level.

As others have mentioned, at the club level, IDPA wants you to shoot in the highest classification that you hold if you haven't been classified in the division you are shooting. At sanctioned matches, you must be classified in the division that you are shooting.

Gringop

[kdmoore]

Does anyone know the reasoning behind why IDPA requires you to shoot the classifier over again for every division you want to be classified in even if you will be using the same gun? If I shoot a DA/SA .45 ACP I can use it in SSP, ESP and CDP if I am willing to live with the advantages or disadvantages of the gun in each of those divisions and adhere to the division magazine capacity. There is no string in the classifier which requires the loading of more than 6 rounds at a time so division magazine capacity does not even come into play. So why won't they allow someone to shoot the classifier once and use their time to get a classification in each of the pistol divisions? In some areas classifiers don't come around too often and it could take a while to get classified in all 3 divisions.

DWS

Because the ranking for the different divisions are not the same. If you shot 120 seconds in SSP you would be an Expert, in ESP and CDP 120 seconds would be a Sharpshooter. Why should you get to sandbag in ESP and CDP just because you shoot a gun that is legal in all 3? If you shoot Expert in SSP you should be shooting against experts in CDP and ESP.

It's not about what is the easiest, it's about earning your classification fair and square and competing against others at your ability level.

As others have mentioned, at the club level, IDPA wants you to shoot in the highest classification that you hold if you haven't been classified in the division you are shooting. At sanctioned matches, you must be classified in the division that you are shooting.

Gringop

DWS, Your proposal does make sense when trying to save time and money, and would be 100% ok if you shot that single handgun in SSP, or at least another at 165 pf (IMHO). Similar statements for ESP apply. But ....

As Gringop implies, this makes it easier for those who have the disposition to sandbag. Admittedly, if someone is sandbagging thier way thru classifiers, this rule just makes it a little more inconvenient, certainly one could shoot a higher score.

Lastly, imagine this IS a rule. HQ has effectively encouraged people to classify in divisions with guns they likely would use to compete there. This opens up a whole can of worms and flies in the face of what the classifier is designed to do ... measure the ability of a gun/shooter combination.

I suppose HQ could allow it if you competed with the same gun/ammo combo .. but then you'd have to track it ... just is opening up a whole can of worms.

If you are wanting to classify in multiple categories, just look at it as extra trigger time. If it's costing too much in time/ammo/match fees then just pick a single division and shoot it for a year? I sincerely doubt the rule would be changed to officially allow this.

Edited January 9, 2008 by kdmoore

[JD40]

Does anyone know the reasoning behind why IDPA requires you to shoot the classifier over again for every division you want to be classified in even if you will be using the same gun? If I shoot a DA/SA .45 ACP I can use it in SSP, ESP and CDP if I am willing to live with the advantages or disadvantages of the gun in each of those divisions and adhere to the division magazine capacity. There is no string in the classifier which requires the loading of more than 6 rounds at a time so division magazine capacity does not even come into play. So why won't they allow someone to shoot the classifier once and use their time to get a classification in each of the pistol divisions? In some areas classifiers don't come around too often and it could take a while to get classified in all 3 divisions.

DWS

Because the ranking for the different divisions are not the same. If you shot 120 seconds in SSP you would be an Expert, in ESP and CDP 120 seconds would be a Sharpshooter. Why should you get to sandbag in ESP and CDP just because you shoot a gun that is legal in all 3? If you shoot Expert in SSP you should be shooting against experts in CDP and ESP.

It's not about what is the easiest, it's about earning your classification fair and square and competing against others at your ability level.

As others have mentioned, at the club level, IDPA wants you to shoot in the highest classification that you hold if you haven't been classified in the division you are shooting. At sanctioned matches, you must be classified in the division that you are shooting.

Gringop

I shoot in the master divisons with the pistolas, but I could not even make novice with a wheel gun!!

[DancesWithSquirrels]

Let me address a couple of the points made by some of the replies:

1. I am shooting a Sig P220 DA/SA so I am not starting cocked and locked no matter what division I shoot in. I realize this is a disadvantage against the 1911's that dominate the CDP division. But I am OK with that since I participate mainly to compete against myself and try to improve.

2. I am not asking why I can't earn a classification obtained in one division and use it for another. I realize there are differences in the times for the classifications. But if I shoot the classifier and get a time of say 140.00 what is the problem with using that time to assign a CDP Sharpshooter, ESP Marksman and SSP Sharpshooter classification. I am not even remotely suggesting that I shoot the classifer in ESP and then apply that Marksman classification to the other divisions.

3. If I were the type who was inclined to sandbag I could just as easily do it one division classifier at a time as I could when trying to obtain a classification for multiple divisions.

4. Maybe I missed it in the rule book but I did not see anything requiring me to compete in any particular division with the same gun I classified with. So I could classify in SSP using my P220 .45 ACP and then compete with a P226 9MM. Seems like that would be a form of sandbagging as well.

As I said in my original message the idea was to obtain a classification for SSP, ESP and CDP without having to find and shoot in 3 separate classifiers. Obviously in order to meet the requirements of all three divisions I would have to shoot at a PF of 165 when I classify. Then when I go to a local match if there is no one shooting in CDP I could participate in SSP and take my chances. Although I am mainly interested in my own progress there is still no fun shooting in a division all by yourself.

I surely don't expect that IDPA is about to change this. But none of the reasons I have read in this thread so far really explain how the rule prevents any cheating or sandbagging whatsoever. I realize that a gun which allows me to participate in multiple divisions is probably not the ideal gun for any single division. But if I am willing to accept the disadvantages then that is my problem and I don't see how I am hurting anyone else. And it seems there might be some guns which might do quite well across all 3 divisions. The S&W M&P .45 comes to mind.

DWS

[Jane]

without having to find and shoot in 3 separate classifiers.

Our local club runs a classifier as a match twice a year (folks can always ask the head dude to run them through some other time if needed.)

Each time I shoot the classifier, I shoot it twice with the same Glock 35 - once in SSP and once in ESP. (In that I use the same WalMart white box .40S&W for both, I agree that it's a bit silly to shoot it twice. But as others have mentioned, the ammo requirements are different for different divisions. Besides, I'm so lousy I need the extra practice )

Why don't you ask the club where you're shooting the classifier whether you can shoot two or three score sheets (in two or three different divisions) at the same match?

[Bones]

Being exceptional is hard work. I applaud your fortitude.

There is no need to amend the rule. Most clubs/MD I know would honor your request to shoot a second classifier if the range time was available - I know I would - and why wouldn't you? You'd get yet another opportunity to shoot. Your scores will be consistent with your skill level regardless of division.

For what it's worth - I have shot and SOd many major matches and met hundreds of competitors. I do not recall a meeting one shooting an SA/DA 45ACP in SSP or ESP.

Best Regards,

Craig

Edited January 10, 2008 by Bones

[HoMiE]

Never really understood this. Does it mean I can be sharpshooter in SSP and marksman in ESP? Or since I made sharpshooter in SSP, I have to shoot sharpshooter in ESP. The wording can be interpreted several ways with shoot at highest classification and may not go down in classification?

[MichiganShootist]

HoMie

You could be a----ESP Master and a SSP Marksman.... with the same gun and same ammo. It's not right but it's the way the IDPA rules work. The USPSA doesn't allow that to happen but the IDPA hasn't faced up to it yet. In my state we have ESP Masters who were promoted at major matches ....now shooting Expert with the same gun in SSP a month later. Maybe the national database of classifiers that IDPA is trying to build will fix this.

I have been shootng IDPA from the begining and am finally a Five Gun Expert.... and I not only did it with 5 different guns... I have now won a major match (state or regional) with each. I think that was what was invisioned not shooting a G-21 in 3 Divisions.... as a number of shooters do in my home state.

I believe that the rules confusion and abuse stems to a large degree from several things:

First--- the majority of guns that are multi-division legal (especially the Glocks) were in Very little use or didn't exist back in the late 90s when IDPA was formed. Now I see matches where 40% of the shooters are shooting a 9mm Glock.

Secondly---The spread between ESP and SSP has been narrowed by new guns, new after market technology, and rulings the IDPA made about such items as extended mag releases etc.

It's off thread.... but IMO---IDPA also needs more levels of classification. Just because someone can once in a life time manage a 98 second classifier... that doesn't make them a Master ready to shoot against REAL masters like Bob Vogel who I know for a fact can shoot the classifier in the 60 second range day after day.

Nuff Said

[JD40]

HoMie

You could be a----ESP Master and a SSP Marksman.... with the same gun and same ammo. It's not right but it's the way the IDPA rules work. The USPSA doesn't allow that to happen but the IDPA hasn't faced up to it yet. In my state we have ESP Masters who were promoted at major matches ....now shooting Expert with the same gun in SSP a month later. Maybe the national database of classifiers that IDPA is trying to build will fix this.

I have been shootng IDPA from the begining and am finally a Five Gun Expert.... and I not only did it with 5 different guns... I have now won a major match (state or regional) with each. I think that was what was invisioned not shooting a G-21 in 3 Divisions.... as a number of shooters do in my home state.

I believe that the rules confusion and abuse stems to a large degree from several things:

First--- the majority of guns that are multi-division legal (especially the Glocks) were in Very little use or didn't exist back in the late 90s when IDPA was formed. Now I see matches where 40% of the shooters are shooting a 9mm Glock.

Secondly---The spread between ESP and SSP has been narrowed by new guns, new after market technology, and rulings the IDPA made about such items as extended mag releases etc.

It's off thread.... but IMO---IDPA also needs more levels of classification. Just because someone can once in a life time manage a 98 second classifier... that doesn't make them a Master ready to shoot against REAL masters like Bob Vogel who I know for a fact can shoot the classifier in the 60 second range day after day.

Nuff Said

+1- I can shoot master classifier scores but In no way could I win the nationals against Rob Leatham or some of the other professional shooters. There needs to be a grandmaster class.

[HoMiE]

Looking at the IDPA rule book, says shooter must shoot classifier at least once every 12 months (masters exempt).

It also says clubs must run a classifier match at least once a year and be available to classify new shooters 4 times a year.

[HuskySig]

1. I am shooting a Sig P220 DA/SA so I am not starting cocked and locked no matter what division I shoot in. I realize this is a disadvantage against the 1911's that dominate the CDP division.

I think Ernest Langdon proved this to be not true back in 2003.

mattk

[DancesWithSquirrels]

It is not a case of not wanting to shoot more. It is simply a matter of wanting to get past the classification without having to find 3 different classifiers. I practice as much as I can. But I can't always attend a match every weekend or get around to other clubs in my area.

Again, I realize what the disadvantages of my favorite gun are in the various divisions. But my gun is eligible by the rules to compete in all three: SSP, ESP and CDP. One of the reasons I want the flexibility to compete in either of those divisions is that I'd like to try and see just how high I can get classified in each of them with the same gun and ammunition. I know the minimum requirements for ammunition are different in CDP from SSP and ESP. But the key word is minimum. I can shoot the same ammunition in all three divisions if the ammunition satisfies the CDP requirements.

As a matter of fact it would seem to me that it would be an accomplishment worthy of some sort of recognition if someone were to make master in all three divisions with the same gun and ammunition. Unfortunately it would be really difficult to verify the "same ammunition" part of it.

I guess I am done ranting. Enjoyed the exchange of opinions. I'd still like to know the official IDPA reasoning behind putting that particular requirement in the rule book.

DWS

[Duane Thomas]

It is simply a matter of wanting to get past the classification without having to find 3 different classifiers. I practice as much as I can. But I can't always attend a match every weekend or get around to other clubs in my area.

IDPA has already addressed that issue. And their solution has already been mentioned in this thread.

A competitor may compete in club matches in a division he does not have a classification in, provided he competes in the highest classification he presently holds.

Seems to me like you have a non-problem. You can already shoot your gun in any division in which you're not already classified, at the highest classification you presently hold.

[Doublehaul]

Nobody in our club would have a problem with using the same time for different divisions with the same gun and load. It would simply be explained to you that you will need to classify again in the next several months.

It may be more formalized at the national matches but IDPA was not concieved for that purpose.

Shoot the classifier whenever you can. Because you count every round and time every string, and of the skills involved, it's a great training tool.

I too, hope to break into 69 seconds on the classifier someday. My best is 71 and it was all going right that day. Normall in the mid/high-70's with CDP. Oh to catch Robbie someday!

[richardschennberg]

Let's take the example of a Glock 21 (.45 ACP) and a 6-shot revolver since you could shoot all divisions with these 2 guns.

I. Glock 21 .45 ACP

A. shoot with 10 rounds in magazines (10+1 at start) for SSP and ESP, with 125 (minimum) PF ammo; 2 seperate runs are required;

B. shoot with 8 rounds in magazines (8+1 at start) for CDP, with 165 (minimum) PF ammo.

II. S&W model 625 or 25 .45 ACP

A. shoot .45 Auto Rim for SSR with 125 (minimum) PF ammo;

B. shoot .45 ACP for CDR with full moon clips and 165 (minimum) PF ammo.

III. 6-shot .357 revolvers

A. shoot .38 SPL or .357 Mag for SSR with 125 (minimum) PF ammo;

B. shoot .357 for CDR with 165 (minimum) PF ammo.

Note that the ammo requirements are different depending on whether a division requires 165 or 125 PF.

IMO even when you are shooting the same gun and ammo for 2 divisions on the same day, you should shoot the more restrictive division first (i.e. SSP before ESP and SSR before CDR) because there is warm-up and practice value to shooting the same gun and ammo twice. It is more realistic that you would shoot a better score if you had a gun that only met the less restricted division requirements, and IMO shooting that division 2nd partly makes up for not using a "better" gun.

BTW I am making this recommendations on the assumption that you want to save $ on guns and ammo, not to suggest that you should ever do anything to distort your classifier scores. Although there is no actual rule, some people frown on using downloaded .45 and .357 ammo. However, for a classifier shooting the most competitive ammo will give you a more realistic classification for that division. Make your own choice based on budget and preference.

[DancesWithSquirrels]

Although there is no actual rule, some people frown on using downloaded .45 and .357 ammo.

I haven't heard anyone express that opinion locally but it wouldn't surprise me if it came up eventually. It seems as though if you are meeting the power factor requirements of the division why would it matter to someone? Personally I have a .45 ACP load that works well in my gun and would use that same load in all divisions since it meets the minimum for all divisions. The most appropriate division for my gun (Sig P220) is CDP. But sometimes our local matches have very few sometimes no one shooting CDP. It would be nice to be able to switch to SSP as a classified shooter on those days.

Your description of a game plan for classifying in multiple divisions with a minimum of hardware and other expense is sensible and complies with what would seem to be the letter and intent of the IDPA rules. My reason for wanting to be able to not have to keep reshooting the classifier with the same gun and ammo is just the difficulty and inconvenience of getting to a qualifier. Our local club is supposedly going to try and get one in before a state match coming up in April. But with a fair number of shooters turning out for a classifier they can't accommodate someone shooting multiple times. So I'd have to find another one somewhere else. There are a couple of other IDPA affiliated clubs within a reasonable drive. But it might take until mid year to get all of the classifiers in.

I believe I am think too much in terms of competing with myself to try and improve my shooting and not thinking in terms of the more competitive aspects of larger matches. I've got the distinct impression that there is a fair number of people who make an effort to compete in a lower classification just to get a better shot at a trophy. Not my way of doing things.

DWS

[COF]

""CDR"?

[Jim Watson]

I think he meant ESR.

I am at present working on .45 Minor for ESP. Big holes score better and it drives the Tactical Gurus nuts.