rvb Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 (edited) Hello teachers!! This student has what at the surface sounds like a stupid question... but I have been a dryfiring mamiac lately and I've encountered something I don't recall ever being talked about nor can I find in searches here. I'm just getting into open (B ) and I'm shooting with a magwell for the first time. The last few practices I have been doing static reloads to sight-picture in 0.8-0.9 on the par timer which is phenominal for me, but occasionally my index finger (properly indexed on the front of the mag) slams into the mag well or even gets smashed between the mag and grip, and hurts like a mofo. This often results in the mag landing on the floor instead of in the gun. With the non-mag-well guns, my index finger just slides up the front strap of the grip and out of the way, and honestly I never really gave it any thought before (A in PD and M in ssp and esp). Now I find myself wondering what I should do with my index finger when a magwell is present??? If I take my finger off the top/front of the mag as I'm about to insert it to get it out of the way of the mag well, I tend to loose my index and the reload isn't as smooth, fumbled, or occassionally even missed horribly. If I leave my index finger properly indexed but curl it down out of the way as the mag goes into the grip, I'm slower reaquiring my grip. Anyone have any good advise? I'd like to build on a good technique now rather than fix bad technique later. STI gun w/ STI magwell. Thanks! rvb Edited January 8, 2008 by rvb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SA Friday Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 bend (like in an arch, with just the tip touching the front of the mag) your finger so it's not as close to the end of the mag. it should give you the extra distance to flip it out of the way of the magwell on the way up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moneypenny Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 2 was really myself i point my finger just a little bit across because as the mag goes in my hand is rotating to the grip. the other is bend the finger which i do a little bit of also. Angus addressed this somewhere on film but he puts his finger waaay of the side so he doesn't get it in the mag well. There is no real final excuse a couple weeks before nationals a well known top shooter screwed his finger up this same way. Good luck and glad to se eyour training! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 Keep on it! Since you are dryfiring like a "mamiac" please allow me to make several tips based on my experiences...(I've dryfired like once or twice in my life ) I don't do par times anymore when I practice my reload drills...which are 10 reps on 15 different targets, rather I let the positioning of my body for each reload dictate the movement. Not every reload in my drill needs to be lightning fast, rather I experience the different feeling of the grip, grab, and insertion of each position. One way to experience different observations whilst dryfiring is music. I dryfire in my garage to pandora.com, which is a website that plays music in the genre that you have programmed. Practice your reloads to heavy, light, acoustic, new age, classical, opera...whatever changes your mood, as these will certainly be the various moods that you will be in when you compete. After you experience something new, document it in a journal...be it paper or right here on the forums. This way, you will be able to go back and reference your notes. And always remember...we never reload with our feet planted (save classifiers) so be sure to train for reloading in one step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 I have been there before and it ALL falls apart at the match, it is my opinion that if you are getting fingers caught you are doing these reloads as a reflex and by muscle memory. If you continue to do so it will work sometimes and not sometimes, add some movement to the reload and use your eyes, if you don't SEE the reload in graphic detail something is wrong, Slow down and see where it is going bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvb Posted January 9, 2008 Author Share Posted January 9, 2008 (edited) Thanks everyone! SA, I certainly don't keep my index finger straight by any means, but I'll try arching it even more. That sounds like a promising solution or at least a starting point for me. Steve, Thanks for making me feel like I'm not the only one to do this! Keeping the finger way off to the side seems to go against all the "right" things we've been taught about reloading. I'm always willing to try something different, but that'll take a lot of "undoing" be comfortable with. I've been toying w/ getting some of the vids out there, might be the time... Pharaoh, Thanks for chiming in! The last few week have been the first I've used the par timer in a long time. I just started in open in '07 just for something fun and different and got w/in a gnat's fart of A (my next classifier should cause an old 57% to change from Y to F and put me over) w/o really practicing on it. In order to learn to index that dot better from draws, draw to sho/who, reloads, reload to sho/who, etc I've been going through the first half of Anderson's book about 3 times per week to establish some personal baselines and make sure what "feels" fast actually looks good on the clock. I started seriously in the middle of Aug and saw imidiate results w/ a 92% classifier in Nov, (but it was a pretty simple one (99-10)). I need to do a better job w/ a journal... I started one back in Aug on some blog site I found, but the interface sucked and I got away from doing it. I guess I should just start a journal here. I certainly understand that "static shooting" is not the bread/butter of the sport and I do practice shooting on move and entering/exiting positions, etc. But this question is more about me getting familiar w/ a new gun and equipment. Thanks for the good idea on practicing to music. "Outside the box" techniques such as that are what makes this site great. Thanks! HSMITH, I'll keep your thoughts in mind during my next practice. I believe I do a good job looking (not just looking at, but SEEING) the magazine into the well, but some thirt-party insight into the problem could help me find a problem I don't "think" I have. I do a lot of 1/4 speed motions where my attention is on where my FOCUS is at and making sure I'm shifting my focus as quickly as I can (from moving the week hand to the new mag and hitting the release, then to SEEING the mag into the well, then on to the sights/target). There are lots of times I'll tell myself "You got lucky on that reload, you had already moved your eyes up towards the dot" or "you were looking at the mag well, but your FOCUS was elsewhere." (yea, when I'm in the zone I find myself talking to myself a lot! ). Everyone, this isn't something that happens on every reload. Between straight reload practice, 6-R-6's, el'pres's of different flavors, Burkett reloads, etc (in other words a hundred times per practice), I might slam my index finger into the well ONCE. But even that gets old 3-4 times per week! Hahaha.. Thanks! -rvb Edited January 9, 2008 by rvb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Next time, while you are doing all that watching...figure out what it looks like when your finger does what it should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvb Posted January 10, 2008 Author Share Posted January 10, 2008 Right now I would say it looks like it does different things. Not consistant. While working to become consistant I was hoping to find out if there is a better or best way to do things. Next time, while you are doing all that watching...figure out what it looks like when your finger does what it should. Between the posts here and a couple of pms, I am starting to realize my mistake in what I see when I'm 'looking the mag in.' I'm detecting a tunnel-vision focus on the well vs an openness.... will work on it.... Thanks! -rvb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Between the posts here and a couple of pms, I am starting to realize my mistake in what I see when I'm 'looking the mag in.' I'm detecting a tunnel-vision focus on the well vs an openness.... will work on it.... That's the stuff. I used to always ask everybody to try stuff out, then come back and shre what they actually saw. It sounds like you were already seeing...and just needed to see...more? (turn up the vision) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Bend (like in an arch, with just the tip touching the front of the mag) your finger so it's not as close to the end of the mag. It should give you the extra distance to flip it out of the way of the magwell on the way up. +1. That was my solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Griffin Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 There's a moment during the reload that exists either in reality and in your mind, or just in your mind, that is when the mag is absolutely, positively going into the gun, no questions asked. Burkett's drill shows the moment as a pause, but it can be reduced to a no-pause mental checkpoint, where you train your body that when your hands and the mag are in position X, you can open your hand and complete the seating with the palm of the hand, fingers extended to take the grip. I had the same problem with jamming my pinky finger into the magwell (the rest of the fingers got out of the way, and I drew blood a few times) until I trained the "get off" point into my reloads. H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvb Posted January 18, 2008 Author Share Posted January 18, 2008 Thanks for your input, everyone. Things are going much smoother. Haven't hit my finger in days and I'm much more consistant. Will continue w/ the dryfire. I'm now adding leaving the positions and reloading to sho/who... regarding the issue on SEEING... I've started slowly and carefully reading through Brian's book while spending time the stationary bike. From Pg 19... "Concentration ... is a narrowing down of the mind to one specific, predetermined focal point. From Pg 20... "Concentration, then, makes creative action and adaptation impossible." No doubt why Brian called this section "The Concentration Fallacy." I talked about myself "seeing" the mag into the grip, but I was concentrating on it so that I was unable to make the necessary adaptations. Seeing with focus but without concentration. Heavy stuff. Posting this question has helped a lot more than my reloads. Thanks, -rvb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stipo Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 I'm no speed demon on reloads...at 56 my "go-faster days" are mostly in the rear view...... But all this reload talk reminds me of Tom Campbell missing the magwell on the reload. The offending magazine was still in the air when he completed the reload with a second mag! Fast, youbetcha! And if I remember right, he had his mags turned backward from what every other shooter in the world was doing, back of the mag toward the gun. I tried that, and for lack of moral courage didn't continue, but that technique would have worked well for me I think. Well....if I had practiced! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chirpy Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 (edited) stipo, thanks for reminding me. I saw a tape of TC firing a shot reloading and firing another shot in what he claimed was under 1 sec. That's faaaaaast! Oh yea! I'm 61 and my get up and go done got up and went!!!!!! Edited January 22, 2008 by chirpy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann the Horrible Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Hell I think you guys are way in overkill. I celebrate if I just get the mag into the magwell on the first try never mind in under a second. Than would explain why I am a C shooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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