What targets to shoot first?

[zhunter]

I was in a class being taught by Tj and one of the students had a preference to shooting right to left. TJ made him run drills in each direction to determine which way gave him the best score. The guy learned that, despite his preference, he was faster left to right.

I think that we are programmed from birth to do things left to right and it would take a lot of practice to overcome that bias.

I am presently using my mouse with my left hand, due to the injury, to I am training for both

[Rocket35]

I was in a class being taught by Tj and one of the students had a preference to shooting right to left. TJ made him run drills in each direction to determine which way gave him the best score. The guy learned that, despite his preference, he was faster left to right.

I think that we are programmed from birth to do things left to right and it would take a lot of practice to overcome that bias.

I am presently using my mouse with my left hand, due to the injury, to I am training for both

Been there Z- recovering from tendonitis...

[Flexmoney]

This question is probably too general to give a good answer.

Most of the top shooters will come into a postion and take the easy target while setting up.

The near-to-far vs. far-to-near debate is around here (search) someplace. Steve Anderson addressed it with some testing at the range...and put up the videos at the bottom of this page: http://andersonshooting.com/videos.htm

[Merlin Orr]

Very interesting to see how the really good shooters think this through..... My shooting mentor has told me nmany times to always try to leave on an easy target and, if possible, never leave on steel......

[Ron Ankeny]

The bottom line is it depends on personal preference and testing.

If you want to know which way is better for you then you have to go to the range and test it meticulously.

I agree. In fact, I spent an entire summer shooting left to right, right to left, low to high, near to far, far to near and so forth. All of the testing and experimentation has really paid off on the stand and deliver stuff and speed shoots. Somewhere in his book Brian talks about shooting in warp drive then slowing down for more difficult shots, vs. shooting the more difficult shots first then going into warp drive. I am one of thoae guys who can shift into a higher gear much easier than down shifting.

As for field courses, I make my decisions based on remaining fluid and avoiding becoming static. As Jake pointed out, if you are leaning, moving, leaving, etc., (especially important on the first array), the added quarter second to take a more difficult shot probably doesn't mean anything if you are already on the go...especially compared to the gains made by shooting the array in the most efficient fashion. As for setting up, I usally take the target I can comfortably engage at the earliest possible time unless there are other factors. As TGO is fond of saying, it's not who gets there first, it's who gets there first ready to shoot.

As for the left to right vs. right to left debate. Ever notice how many of the top flight shooters go left to right on plate racks and Steel Challenge, then end up shooting right to left on array after array in a field course because they shoot targets as they appear?

[Radical Precision Designs]

I have seen a few GM's doing it both ways. I have seen lesser tiered shooters do it both ways too. I have asked both sets why they do it that way, and the answer seems to also be the same.

The advise I cherished the most was the one that told me to use my common sense and to use the fluidity of motion to determine it. The position of the next array and your direction of travel would determine which shot to take first. There should be no difference between harder or easier shot, only your shot being called properly. If the longer shot requires more time to call the shot properly that is where your time/patience constraint comes into play. Indeed if the close easy shot is that easy, then it doesn't require that much dwelling upon it. But there is indeed also the "adrenaline" syndrome where many shooters will lack the discipline to take the necessary time to precisely call the shot and opt to spray it. Obviously "spraying" at longer shots is seldom productive, while it could be useful in closer shots.

It will take the same amount of time to shoot either target first or second, when called in properly, and that is where the fluidity of the next array clomes into play. Many shooters are so used at doing "Bill Drills" at close range, that this familiarity will push them to instinctively shoot/draw the closer target first regardless of the difficulty. That is why it is a good idea to practice "Bill Drills" at longer ranges too.

[Bigbadaboom]

Which ever I feel gives me the best economy of motion for the stage in its' entirety. If the most difficult shot will allow me to exit my position faster by taking it first then that's what I do and visa/versa.

Also; I never understood the whole "exit on steel" debate. Deductive reasoning tells me that I would rather begin an exit missing steel and realize it, return/stop/pause or whatever and re-engage it than exit missing paper and not know it and get a miss. The pause/hesitation usually doesn't cost as much as a miss.

[Ron Ankeny]

Also; I never understood the whole "exit on steel" debate.

The exit on steel debate revolves around the notion that a miscalled A hit on a paper target that turns out to be a C is easier to overcome than shooting at steel and having the miscalled "decent hit" turn out to be a miss. For me, it's much easier to hit the Alpha/Charlie area of a 10 yard target while I am leaning hard, moving, or initiating a step than it is to hit something like a round plate.

The pause/hesitation usually doesn't cost as much as a miss.

Even a good shooter (as in world class) can easily burn two to three seconds by initiating a step, realizing they missed, engaging the target again, then getting going again. The inturruption in flow and focus can be very costly. Edited December 19, 2007 by Ron Ankeny

[richardschennberg]

1. Easy target first.

2. After the hard target, watch your front sight rise and begin moving to the next array exactly when it stops. Any later is wasting time; any earlier and you could move too early and miss the shot.

Richard

[wide45]

Ideally, you come in on the second easiest target, and leave on the easiest, but you have to work with what the stage gives you.

[ChrisStock]

Without getting too wraped up in target orders, because it soooo conditional, IN GENERAL, I use the following guidelines: try to leave on the easiest target (not steel if possible), and enter on an easy/comfortable target.

I've found, through a huge amount of experimenting, that you can "make up" twice the time leaving a box as you can entering one.

be

I have been digging through the site's old posts, and the above is what I found...hope it helps

[Flexmoney]

I'll throw a few things out here in this mix.

This is rather subjective, because we are dealing with generalities here.

Guidelines, but not hard rules:

- Hardly never will I want to stand in the start position and shoot after the buzzer. When the beep goes off, I want to be lifting a foot. Whatever your draw speed is...you could be losing that time up by standing still...not doing any shooting or moving while getting the gun into play.

I'll design stages with a nice fat duck of a target to draw to. Some shooters will go for the .9s draw that they practice all the time...I'll take the same hit with a 1.2s first shot, but I've already made that time (and more) up by moving down range while I was getting the gun into action. Gotta get your points, though. Don't go giving up your points (they equate to time).

What is really a killer is standing in the start position and engaging a whole flock of targets, that you could engage later.

Basically...get moving at the beep, when you have a choice (almost always).

- Along the lines of above. It usually a loser to stand back and shoot distant targets, when you are going to be moving down range anyhow. Sure, your old, fat, slow...whatever, and you can hit well at 25y and better. Congratulations you shooting stud...you just lost stage points. As a general rule...make your shots easier (get down range), and set up so you don't have big swings on your transitions. Your hits will be better and your times will be faster.

You might wonder why it's faster in the above. The reason has to do with geometry, for one. Your index, or natural point, will have a certain amount of wobble to it...a certain degree of arc. The further down range the target is, the more that comes into play. You don't end up naturally pointing the gun at the target, so you have to move it onto target. Even if you have great trigger control...you've lost time muscling the gun around. Multiply that by how many shots you are taking from the back.

- Coming into a position or array...all other things being equal...take the easy target first. The reason here is simple. Your setup into a position sucks. It's not as good as you think it is. Taking the easy target gives you some error room while you get setup into a position. Of course, you can wait to get solid and take a harder target, but you have lost time. And, this goes for the big-dogs too. There are a handful (top GM's, not just GM's, guys with names you recognize, because they win the big matches) that setup great. 9 out of 10 of them will take the duck coming in too. The top GM can be done with that target before the setup is complete...basically taking a target out of the setup (thus, one less transition and split in an array/stopping point).

All of the above is general...many things can influence it. You don't want to reverse your flow, for instance. Once I get my 230lbs moving, it takes time to change direction. If I need to change direction, I'll want to do it while in a position, not after I want to leave.

You'll find good reasons not to do the above. Go with what feels right for you. But, if you are on the fence, then perhaps consider these guidelines.

[Ron Ankeny]

Sure, your old, fat, slow...whatever, and you can hit well at 25y and better.

Sicks and stones may break... Flex is right on the mark. On both counts.

[Flexmoney]

Ron...you are one of the few that get a free pass. (not that it means anything coming from me)

You have reasons that hold up. Others think they have reasons, but what they really have are excuses.

(Damn I'm mean.)

[grandbagger]

you broke it down easy flex....

[Rocket35]

Good stuff professor Flex!

[benos]

If you have an easy target and a difficult target, that you either would have to draw to, or leave on, which would you take first? Would the same hold true when arriving at a port? I know you want to set up and leave on an easy target, but if you must do one, either coming or going, which would it be?

I think the answer depends on a combination of one's Temperament, experience, and the sizes and arrangements of the targets in the array.

Some, depending on "who" they are, prefer to get set up and started feeling in control. While others like to just come out blasting. The latter are okay with kind of getting it together from shot to shot.

Before you shoot, always determine the "key" targets in each array. Key targets being targets that you absolutely do not want to miss (on the first shot). If you have to leave an array to shoot more targets, the last target you shoot in the first array usually should be the #1 key target. If you don't have to move, the first target is usually the key target.

After you've trained and experimented for a while, you'll be better able to quickly determine the best way for you to shoot each array.

Analyze each stage on the basis of your own strengths and weaknesses. Never shoot a stage a certain way because someone else shot it that way.

be

[Ramas]

Very interesting discussion is going here, but I see for myself few conflicting points here in Brian posts, please explain a little bit for me:

1.try to leave on the easiest target (not steel if possible), and enter on an easy/comfortable target.

I've found, through a huge amount of experimenting, that you can "make up" twice the time leaving a box as you can entering one.

2.Before you shoot, always determine the "key" targets in each array. Key targets being targets that you absolutely do not want to miss (on the first shot). If you have to leave an array to shoot more targets, the last target you shoot in the first array usually should be the #1 key target. If you don't have to move, the first target is usually the key target.

In my point of view, if before leaving position you will shoot "key" target last you will be loosing time, because you will shoot standing, not leaning out of position. And if you going into your last shooting point before you going into position you should shoot easy target before you settle down and should take the "key" target when you have good position.

Edited December 21, 2007 by Ramas

[racerba]

I try to shoot the targets in the order that are in line with my movement. Of course, I like to enter and leave on the more open target. If I had the choice, I would leave on the easier target.

Never shoot a stage a certain way because someone else shot it that way.

be

Agreed 100%

Edited December 21, 2007 by racerba

[benos]

I'm not sure if I'm on track with you... but by "key target" I just mean a target you don't want to miss. Which may or may not mean that it's an easy or hard target.

In leaving a position, I agree - if possible I'd usually want to shoot the easiest target last, to "get the lean going."

For me, I found it best to determine the target order by evaluating and comparing the best "technical" way to shoot an array with my own, known, personal tendencies. As an example, say I'm coming into a position with an easy shot, some medium difficulty shots, and a couple hard shots. And I decide to shoot the easy target first, so I can "get it out of the way before I'm completely in position." Quite often I'd shoot the rest of the targets like crap, because I'd shoot everything without ever getting into a good upper body position. So in some scenarios I might shoot a medium target first, so I'd shoot the whole string better.

I remember a note from my original notebook, long ago. It was something close to - "When entering a position, take the time to get set up behind the gun. On the clock, it may be a tenth or two (.1 - .2 of a second), but it's usually time well spent."

be

[Ramas]

Thank you Brian, now it is clear

"When entering a position, take the time to get set up behind the gun. On the clock, it may be a tenth or two (.1 - .2 of a second), but it's usually time well spent."

be

Golden words!