Single Port Comp

[TMC]

I'd be most concerned with the upward blast from a comp or hybrid. I've seen carry classes where they have folks shoot from, it think its called retention, with the gun very close to the body, almost beside you at your hip. A comp or hybrid would blow allot of gas going right up under your chin or just in front of your face. I would think this shooting postition would be more common in a purely defensive situtation. If you have time for a good draw and two handed presentation you'd probally have time to escape. Also what about shooting from the drivers seat of a car in a carjacking situation? same thing with the gun very close to you in a small space. I'm in CA so I can't legally carry , but if I did I'd use my G19, it small, cheap, reliable and if its lost or conficated for any reason I don't care, its just a Glock.

[rvb]

I think I'd be afraid to ccw a comp'd/ported gun. What if you end up shooting w/ the gun close to your body like from retention, or a struggle has you breaking the shot near you or your face? I've never put parts of my body near a comp 'cause I don't wanna learn the results first hand. Harmless? Dangerous? I dunno, but I ain't doin it w/o letting you try it first! [please put the vid on youtube! haha]

Legal/practical/tactical mumbo jumbo asside, I only want one "dangerous end" in a non-gamey gun.

-rvb

edit: oops, guess I could have jsut "+1" to TMC.

Edited December 10, 2007 by rvb

[MichiganShootist]

Merlin

I teach CPL (concealed pistol license) classes and do a lot of indoor and low light shooting. I have had a CPL for over 40 years. I would never consider any form of comp or magna-port on a carry gun.

Reasons.

1. Loss of night vision (over 75% of CCW "events" happen after dark)

2. Dangerous (as many have said) to the shooter at close distances (The majority of "events" take place at 9 feet or less)

3. Additional weight and length

4. The comp represents just another "thing" that can snag or hangup on clothing (imagine a draw with a button in the comp hole)

5. May interfer with holster fit and operation.

That's my list.

Edited December 10, 2007 by MichiganShootist

[Merlin Orr]

Merlin

I teach CPL (concealed pistol license) classes and do a lot of indoor and low light shooting. I have had a CPL for over 40 years. I would never consider any form of comp or magna-port on a carry gun.

Reasons.

1. Loss of night vision (over 75% of CCW "events" happen after dark)

2. Dangerous (as many have said) to the shooter at close distances (The majority of "events" take place at 9 feet or less)

3. Additional weight and length

4. The comp represents just another "thing" that can snag or hangup on clothing (imagine a draw with a button in the comp hole)

5. May interfer with holster fit and operation.

That's my list.

Good and valid points all. The loss of vision thing is worrisome. If you did have to touch off the 9x23 you might then stumble over the corpse with no night vision.....

[TMC]

If you did have to touch off the 9x23 you might then stumble over the corpse with no night vision.....

Now that's funny right there

[eerw]

you might then stumble over the corpse with no night vision.....

made me choke on my Pepsi..

yep..carry comps are for everyone..and not everyone will agree..it is only a tool..and like all tools, the more complex..the more training and more dilengence you must have..

many times..simpler is better..as the KISS principle..

but just because you don't agree..doesn't make the technology, the training, or the principle wrong..its just not for you..

many of us carry a 642 or a small .357.. there is far more muzzle blast coming out of that cylinder gap than in a carry comp..and no one gripes about shooting a 2" barreled .357 from retention..

there is little difference between the two..

[MichiganShootist]

The flash from unburned powder varies (in the same gun) a lot from one factory round to another. Some of the +P rated defensive loads are amazing. Shooters should try their "carry" ammo after dark and see what their pet load does. Stand to the side and have a friend fire your gun to see what is really going on.

I'd rather carry softer hitting ammo that will produce less blast or flash than heavy "stuff" that blinds everyone in the neighborhood when it is fired. Like I tell my "students" one .22 to the forehead is better than three .40s into the sky.

I watched a guy shoot some very hot ammo in a Taurus 2" barreled 357 snubbie which had factory slots cut into it like the Magna-Port process. It was at an indoor range with 7' ceilings. He left scorch marks on the ceiling.... and damn near blinded my entire class with his first round.

[tightloop]

Merlin:

You know that I am not an attorney, but I get so incredibly tired of people telling me not to carry a custom gun or handloaded ammo for CHL...I harken back to the bystander who spied a Texas Ranger carrying a 1911 in condition 1 and politely told the Ranger that it was dangerous to carry his pistol that way....to which the Ranger replied.."...hell, son, I wouldn't be totin' the damn thing if it wasn't dangerous..."

Just engage brain B4 you shoot anyone and NO MATTER what you smoke him with, chances are you will be ok. Promise it will go to Grand Jury, and you will have to get a lawyer and he will try to sue you, but you will be fine...9x23 is a damn fine defense load...all those things happened ot me when I shot the guy who broke into my home in 1974, so promise it will happen now..

They will try to make something from nothing no matter the circumstances...bottom line, carry what you feel will do the job, you have confidence in and will run 100% of the time...

That kind of conjecture just rips my britches...with a jury of my peers, and the law being on my side cause I ain't going to break any of them...I really don;t worry about my choice of weapons for CHL...98% of the time I carry my .45 in Commander and I have a carry comp (two Port) top end that I sometimes carry with it...the other times I carry my mouse fart .22 Mag derringer and a big knife...sometimes two or more knives...and I have been known ot carry my Commander, derringer, and a .380 Beretta as well as a knife...then there are the truck weapons, but we won't get into those here...Do what you feel is right and the devil be hanged...Talk to Dane Burns on 9x23 and loading data for it...he knows lots about it...as do some members of this forum...

Wink

[revchuck]

many of us carry a 642 or a small .357.. there is far more muzzle blast coming out of that cylinder gap than in a carry comp..and no one gripes about shooting a 2" barreled .357 from retention..

Nick - I griped about shooting a 4" .357 from retention - I don't even want to try it with a snubby!

[Carlos]

Dirtypool wrote: " Have answers that make sense. Just like non-gun people asking you "Oh my Gawd... could you really shoot someone?" You better ask yourself that question before you actually start to carry."

A female co-worker who has 2 kids once asked this when she learned I sometimes enjoy recreational shooting & assumed we keep guns at home (we do). SPecifically, she asked, "Do you think you could really shoot another human being?" (assuming the guns would be used for home defense).

I answered: "I am not sure. To protect my life & my family, I hope I could do the right thing and not freeze."

But then I asked her:

"If a criminal threatened the life of your children, do you think YOU could actually harm that person or shoot them?"

Her response:

"I would kill anyone with my bare hands if they threatened my children!"

Funny how there was no hesitation in her response or her thoughts (when it was her kids).

[ken hebert]

You should point out to her that if she were to use a gun instead of her bare hands she would be less likely to chip/break a nail and save a trip to the salon.

[dirtypool40]

Merlin:

You know that I am not an attorney, but I get so incredibly tired of people telling me not to carry a custom gun or handloaded ammo for CHL...I harken back to the bystander who spied a Texas Ranger carrying a 1911 in condition 1 and politely told the Ranger that it was dangerous to carry his pistol that way....to which the Ranger replied.."...hell, son, I wouldn't be totin' the damn thing if it wasn't dangerous..."

I heard that one with the Ranger's answers being:

You Damned Betcha!!!

I also like the one about the ranger being asked why he was carrying his pistol at a social event. Was he expecting trouble?

"No Ma'am, if I was expecting trouble, I'd have brought a rifle."

[Wakal]

9 by 23 carry guns are fun. My usual carry gun is a STI Commander, but I also have a Hornet (aluminum frame factory STI with a 3.9" slide and a comp) with both 9mm and 9 by 23 barrels. The Hornet fits in a 5" holster and shoots great! The fireball from a 4.25" barrel is pretty interesting, comp or no comp. Night vision? We don't need no stinkin' night vision!

That said, shooting either gun at night doesn't much bother me. The flash is big and bright, but doesn't last long

Alex

[tightloop]

Like Wakal says the fireball does not last long and besides the stats tell us that "social" confrontations are usually very close like 7 feet or so and you surely can use your natural index for the second shot, should your visual purple suddenly go away...and with a 9x23, after the first two shots you still have 9 more, so squeeze off a few in that general direction while you hunt some cover and regain your night vision...slow as I move these days it might take all 9 to get to some cover, but that is why I carry those xtra mags...

The Ranger comment was usurped from a Skeeter Skelton article of long ago..might have misquoted a bit, but you get the message...

Edited December 11, 2007 by tightloop

[dirtypool40]

The Ranger comment was usurped from a Skeeter Skelton article of long ago..might have misquoted a bit, but you get the message...

Yup, I loved it!!!

As to VIP's and their predecessors, I think they are AWESOME carry guns. I'm thinking of putting a short grip on my "Mall Ninja Supremo" and carry it. The hard part to conceal is the grip.

I personally like .40, but to each their own. I think we need an STI carry gun gallery thread.

[aggunner]

I carry a comped 4" 1911 and if I ever have to shoot i will be confident in saying in court that I absolutely had to shoot because I knew how damn loud that gun was and it could cause hearing loss.

Why did I comp my carry gun? I shoot hot ammo through it and follow up shots were difficult make and storm lake made me the wrong barrel and EGW salvaged it and I decided to have a comp installed while over there.

Am I worried about the flash? Yeah but I usually shoot in low light conditions and I'm to the point where I can fight through it

And what about shooting close to my body? If i have to shoot close to my body i'm going to angle the gun away from my body for two reasons, avoid the muzzle blast and keep the gun clear from any clothing.

[OpnBlstr]

An actual defensive shooting will likely be VERY close-in - to the point you will only be shooting strong handed while holding the bad guy off with your weak hand/arm. Spittin' distance. That weak side appendage will most likely be not much higher than 18" directly above your muzzle.

The next time you're at the range hold a target 18" above a comp/hybrid gun and torch one off. A 45 probably won't do much damage but I know my 38 super open gun will shred right through it. Then think worst case scenario and hold the target 4" above the comp.

IDPA scenarios and such are best case. Nice static targets standing still at 5+ yards just begging you to carefully aim into the -0 zone doesn't really happen outside of wonderland. Targets jumping on you by surprise, knocking you to the ground, and landing punches to your body while you try to get your gun into action one handed while you physically fight the bad guy off is far more representative of a real-world confrontation. The last thing you need is the surprise of searing hot gas burning into your flesh and a hellacious blast causing you to reflexively squeeze your eyes shut.

[tightloop]

An actual defensive shooting will likely be VERY close-in - to the point you will only be shooting strong handed while holding the bad guy off with your weak hand/arm. Spittin' distance. That weak side appendage will most likely be not much higher than 18" directly above your muzzle.

The next time you're at the range hold a target 18" above a comp/hybrid gun and torch one off. A 45 probably won't do much damage but I know my 38 super open gun will shred right through it. Then think worst case scenario and hold the target 4" above the comp.

IDPA scenarios and such are best case. Nice static targets standing still at 5+ yards just begging you to carefully aim into the -0 zone doesn't really happen outside of wonderland. Targets jumping on you by surprise, knocking you to the ground, and landing punches to your body while you try to get your gun into action one handed while you physically fight the bad guy off is far more representative of a real-world confrontation. The last thing you need is the surprise of searing hot gas burning into your flesh and a hellacious blast causing you to reflexively squeeze your eyes shut.

How many comp'ed carry guns have you fired, owned, used....My list is more than 12...and while none of them were chambered in 9x23, the 9mm, 38 Super, 40, 10mm and .45, all were better for having the comp...as far as shooting at less than 5 feet from retention, reliability is more important than worrying about a comp...

[ken hebert]

You know, if it gets to the point to where I actually have to use a firearm to defend myself/loved ones I can just about guarantee I'm really not gonna give a rats ass if I get burnt/singed by the weapon.

I'LL BE ALIVE AND THEY WONT. Burns heal, death don't.

[davidwiz]

As a carry gun I have been warned by several LE type folks not to use a gun that has been customized in any way.

Hot shot defence lawyers will call it a gun made just to kill with and twist the facts against you.

Same with ammo....only factory ...or they will claim your ammo was made by you just for killing someone.

I hate to say this, but this is gun-writer BS that your police friends probably read from a magazine and take as the gospel-truth. Self-defense is self-defense. There are *no* reported cases anywhere in the US that I have been able to find where the type of (you name it) gun, bullets, etc. made a difference in whether a self-defense shooting was justified or not. There is a certain gunwriter, who shall remain nameless, who is not an attorney (and is not really a police officer either) who continues to spout this BS without providing any basis in fact (despite many people asking him to provide them) and the gun magazines continue to print it. If this was actually the case, then the LAPD, FBI, etc. would not be using "customized" 1911s and the like.

The bottom line is, with apologies to any police officers here, is that the police are not attorneys, don't know the law, and they should not be relied upon for legal advice. If you want legal advice, go talk to an attorney who practices that specific area of the law in your jurisdiction.

[Merlin Orr]

Thank you, David.

I have yet to move to actually buying parts for this project but it still very much interests me. I think Ken Hebert and I may just have twins.............. (built.)

[gans]

No complaints from these customers. Some are in law enforcement/training as well.

[ken hebert]

I haven't forgotten. Just got through paying for a new Benny 6", gimme a little while to restock the gun-fund. That, and really decide what I (and merlin) want. Having some difficulty deciding between a 1911 frame and a 2011 frame. I now carry a 5" .45, so I have no problem concealing a full size gun.

Still like eerw's blaster...

[A38337]

In an open gun, we use larger amounts of (slower burning) powder than used in commercially produced cartridges to produce more pressure and gas volume, to work with all those plates in the large comps that we hang on the end of the pistol.

The minimal comps used carry guns do not reduce muzzle flip enough to make the proverbial gnat's behind of difference in a defense situatino, and they also create a LOT of problems.

About 4 guys out of 85 that I train are using compensated glocks on duty (G23C, 2 G21Cs, G17C). They all bought them because they believed the hype about how much better they would shoot. In back to back testing of comped and non comped glock models, I have found NO difference in recoil, flip, or split times.

Moreover, with the comped guns, guys have the following disadvantages:

They can't shoot from retention w/o high risk of injury.

They can't shoot from some braced contact positions due to ***certain*** injury.

When shooting in low light, they destroy their ability to see the target, and to threat discriminate and engage additional threats.

Another note: there is a very good reason why military ammo incorporates flash retardant into the propellant.

To show the safety issues with comped guns, I take a cardboard IPSC target and hold it about 6" over the comp, then I fire the gun. The cardboard shreds and pieces go flying. No way you'd want that happening to any part of your body that the comp gets close to.

Edited February 25, 2008 by A38337

[Merlin Orr]

True (to varying extents) with commonly found/used handgun calibers. Have you tried a 9X23 in a single port comp vs a non comped gun? Or a .460 Roland-single port comp vs a non comped model?

Just curious as these are the only calibers I am considering using for a carry gun with a single port comp.

And bye the bye... I now have a short regular STI wide frame and slides in both 9mm and .45......... Something is going to happen soon.