Missed steel and given point

[ofcrfs242]

I am looking for suggestions on what you would have done for all of you veteran shooters.

Yesterday at a local club match I assisted with setting up all of the stages. We just got all of our brand new poppers done and they had never been shot. I did a calibration shot on all of the poppers with a 9mm (barely making minor PF). All of the poppers fell on the calibration shot. My squad was the first to shoot stage #3 a Virginia Count stage. One of our shooters had a low hit on the popper and called for a calibration. A hit in the calibration area dropped the popper. The shooter acknowledged this and gracefully took the Miss. Later squad two was on the same stage. My squad had finished shooting and I was watching as they shot the stage. One of the shooters in this squad hit the same popper low in the same place as the shooter in my squad. The shooter immediately began complaining that he hit the target and he should not have to take the miss. The RO actually gave him the hit. Our match director had seen part of what was going on and asked me. I told him that it was a low hit and the popper did not fall but the RO gave the points anyways. The match director informed the RO of the two seperate calibrations done on that popper and unless the shooter called for another one it would be scored as a Miss. I overheard the RO tell the shooter (still complaining) that it would count as a hit. THINKING that I was not that competitive I let it be. When the match results were posted the shooter that was given the points on the stage that I ran clean beat me on the stage. In my own mind I know that I won that stage and I guess that is all that really matters. On the other hand it has been eating me since the scores were posted that I didn't bring it to the attemtion of the match director.

[JThompson]

I am looking for suggestions on what you would have done for all of you veteran shooters.

Yesterday at a local club match I assisted with setting up all of the stages. We just got all of our brand new poppers done and they had never been shot. I did a calibration shot on all of the poppers with a 9mm (barely making minor PF). All of the poppers fell on the calibration shot. My squad was the first to shoot stage #3 a Virginia Count stage. One of our shooters had a low hit on the popper and called for a calibration. A hit in the calibration area dropped the popper. The shooter acknowledged this and gracefully took the Miss. Later squad two was on the same stage. My squad had finished shooting and I was watching as they shot the stage. One of the shooters in this squad hit the same popper low in the same place as the shooter in my squad. The shooter immediately began complaining that he hit the target and he should not have to take the miss. The RO actually gave him the hit. Our match director had seen part of what was going on and asked me. I told him that it was a low hit and the popper did not fall but the RO gave the points anyways. The match director informed the RO of the two seperate calibrations done on that popper and unless the shooter called for another one it would be scored as a Miss. I overheard the RO tell the shooter (still complaining) that it would count as a hit. THINKING that I was not that competitive I let it be. When the match results were posted the shooter that was given the points on the stage that I ran clean beat me on the stage. In my own mind I know that I won that stage and I guess that is all that really matters. On the other hand it has been eating me since the scores were posted that I didn't bring it to the attemtion of the match director.

The RO needs to get some spine.

[G-ManBart]

Tough spot....you don't want to be the guy complaining about what someone else did, but what happened was wrong. The shooter could have taken the mike or asked for a calibration. There isn't any other choice. I don't get why the RO would have disregarded the MD's instructions....bad form.

[vluc]

No steel in Virginia Count. 9.2.3.2 Virginia Count stages must us paper targets exclusively.

and

Steel must fall to score. 4.3.1.5 Scoring metal targets must be shot and fall or overturn to score.

2 strikes on this one.

[Coolduckboy]

I am a hell raiser (I have pissed off quite a few RO's in my young career) and I would've argued until i was blue in the face, or purple, and made sure that, that situation got handled like a normal matter instead of "ASSuming" that he/she should get the hit.

[danny]

Same thing happened on the new poppers are club shot, the calebration were done and one shooter called for another and took the miss. The other group had a shooter hit the same popper low and the RO gave him the point. Some people just can't stand to play by the rules, and just have to bitch that it was not their fault. Your the better Man

[JThompson]

No steel in Virginia Count. 9.2.3.2 Virginia Count stages must us paper targets exclusively.

Good point Vince.... I missed that.

[ofcrfs242]

Sorry about that you are right it wasn't a Virginia Count but the way it was set up you only had two three rounds to engage two steel. I guess technically not a Virginia Count stage

Edited November 19, 2007 by ofcrfs242

[vluc]

Sorry about that you are right it wasn't a Virginia Count but the way it was set up you only had two three rounds to engage two steel. I guess technically not a Virginia Count stage

Fine. Makes it even clearer. What part of "steel must fall to score" don't they understand? I'd check to see if he was actually an RO or just someone running the timer....

But on another note, there are only 3 scoring methods in USPSA. Fixed time, Virginia and Comstock. If you were given three shots for 2 targets, was it in a fixed time frame? That seems to be the only way to prohibit the number of shots on steel targets.

Edited November 19, 2007 by vluc

[Flexmoney]

It might be a good time to get your people together and schedule an RO class from USPSA.

Talk with your Section Coordinator and the Match Director.

[SA Friday]

Even if the calibration failed, the shooter would not get the hit.... It's a reshoot

[Coolduckboy]

Even if the calibration failed, the shooter would not get the hit.... It's a reshoot

Sounds like a lazy RO and a MD that needed to drop a set.

[ofcrfs242]

The more that I think about it I should have raised h#@$ with the RO. Even in a small local match winning a stage for a relatively new shooter is a great confidence boost. It won't happen again. Thanks for the input and refresser on rules.

[vluc]

The more that I think about it I should have raised h#@$ with the RO. Even in a small local match winning a stage for a relatively new shooter is a great confidence boost. It won't happen again. Thanks for the input and refresser on rules.

Remember, the rules are no different for a local match than for a major one. Take an RO class as soon as you can. The dividends from it are immense. Then do the CRO course. Never stop learning.

[boo radley]

The more that I think about it I should have raised h#@$ with the RO. Even in a small local match winning a stage for a relatively new shooter is a great confidence boost. It won't happen again. Thanks for the input and refresser on rules.

This is a tough 'un. Challenging another competitor's score is a tricky business.

In my limited experience, the less you worry about a break another shooter catches, or a penalty the RO missed, etc., the happier you'll be.

The description of the stage, and grasp of the rules, sound vague to begin with. Was it, in fact, Virginia Count? Etc. etc. Perhaps you should talk to the MD, but maybe in the context of ensuring the stages are USPSA-legal, and the rules regarding steel, calibration and reshoots are understood, as opposed to complaining about a specific shooter being 'helped.'

[ofcrfs242]

The more that I think about it I should have raised h#@$ with the RO. Even in a small local match winning a stage for a relatively new shooter is a great confidence boost. It won't happen again. Thanks for the input and refresser on rules.

This is a tough 'un. Challenging another competitor's score is a tricky business.

In my limited experience, the less you worry about a break another shooter catches, or a penalty the RO missed, etc., the happier you'll be.

The description of the stage, and grasp of the rules, sound vague to begin with. Was it, in fact, Virginia Count? Etc. etc. Perhaps you should talk to the MD, but maybe in the context of ensuring the stages are USPSA-legal, and the rules regarding steel, calibration and reshoots are understood, as opposed to complaining about a specific shooter being 'helped.'

I would agree about it being tricky business depending on the shooter. If the RO had just overlooked it or something like that I could see it. But when the shooter whines and complaines about it so much the RO just gives it to him I think it is another story. The shooter in this case is one who whines about everything!!!

And the RO should have had the gumption to stand up to the shooter and say NO you take the Mike just like anyone else would have.

Edited November 20, 2007 by ofcrfs242

[boo radley]

I would agree about it being tricky business depending on the shooter. If the RO had just overlooked it or something like that I could see it. But when the shooter whines and complaines about it so much the RO just gives it to him I think it is another story. The shooter in this case is one who whines about everything!!!

Ah. That's just a case of an "A**hole." There are some everywhere in life, unfortunately. USPSA and IDPA seem to have fewer than other sports I've participated in....But they exist. <shrug> They win by getting under your skin. You think HE is still bothered by the standing popper?

And the RO should have had the gumption to stand up to the shooter and say NO you take the Mike just like anyone else would have.

NO. That is NOT the rule. See Appendix C1, 6 a], 6 b] and 6 c].

This is one of the reasons it's a slippery slope, if you start down this path. You're going to trot out the rule book: best be *right*. Besides -- the ultimate revenge is to take the L1 RO course, and run him fairly but strictly.

MHO, of course, and no offense. Just a different perspective.

[ofcrfs242]

I would agree about it being tricky business depending on the shooter. If the RO had just overlooked it or something like that I could see it. But when the shooter whines and complaines about it so much the RO just gives it to him I think it is another story. The shooter in this case is one who whines about everything!!!

Ah. That's just a case of an "A**hole." There are some everywhere in life, unfortunately. USPSA and IDPA seem to have fewer than other sports I've participated in....But they exist. <shrug> They win by getting under your skin. You think HE is still bothered by the standing popper?

And the RO should have had the gumption to stand up to the shooter and say NO you take the Mike just like anyone else would have.

NO. That is NOT the rule. See Appendix C1, 6 a], 6 b] and 6 c].

This is one of the reasons it's a slippery slope, if you start down this path. You're going to trot out the rule book: best be *right*. Besides -- the ultimate revenge is to take the L1 RO course, and run him fairly but strictly.

MHO, of course, and no offense. Just a different perspective.

Boo Radley

No offense taken and I truely enjoy the different perspectives. Helps me see the other points of view that I can't when I get in that mind set. One of the reasons I enjoy this forum so much. And really I know that I won that stage regardless of what was announced at the end of the match. When all is said and done that is really all that matters. I can really show him by practicing up for next match and beating him the right way by the rules.

Thanks

Robert

Edited November 20, 2007 by ofcrfs242

[Gary Stevens]

Gee, I hope this was not a NROI certified RO. If it was, he/she needs to be sent to the NROI re-education camp to get their mind right.

Gary

[Slowhand]

I will never understand a shooter whining , arguing and or complaining in order

to get a point when the rules clearly state the popper must fall. At our club matches

ammo is never chrono'd. The steel is calibrated and if it is shot low, fails to drop,

it is scored a miss. Period.

After DQ'ing at my first big match I signed for a RO course. I signed up not because

I disagreed with the call, (Ray Charles could have seen me break the 180), but

because I hope to become a better shooter.

[Flexmoney]

For the cost involved...which is less monie$ than the cost of a match or two, and a Saturday and part of a Sunday's worth of time...taking an RO class is a fantastic value. It helps your own personal shooting, and it really and truly supports the sport.

[Ron Ankeny]

There was a time when I would have been extremely vocal with all involved on the spot. Now that I am a little more "seasoned" I would let things slide until after the match, at which point I would set the RO straight without being overly confrontational. No sense in ruining relationships over a popper.

[ofcrfs242]

I am definately going to get to an RO school in the near future. If nothing else to continue the learning process which I have found should never quit in anything that you are doing.

And I gues the thing that really rubbed me wrong about this was the shooter complaining so much about it. If you have a valid point by all means vocalize it but if you are just whining to hear yourself whine shut the f@#$ up. Thankfully very few of the people that I have ran accross in my experience with USPSA/IPSC are that way. Most are very pleasant to be around. And I guess that I should not have let myself get so wound up over one popper. A little more self discipline could go a long way in that department. Thankfully that happened after I was done shooting or it could have seriously wrecked my performance in the match (nothing great to begin with but could have been worse).

All the input is greatly appreciated

[Heavy Metal Only]

No steel in Virginia Count. 9.2.3.2 Virginia Count stages must us paper targets exclusively.

and

Steel must fall to score. 4.3.1.5 Scoring metal targets must be shot and fall or overturn to score.

2 strikes on this one.

+1 on that unfortunately it seems that sometimes poo slides

[richardschennberg]

It looks to me that there was not a well-trained certified RO on that planet. At some point, someone either touched the popper or let the next shooter shoot it down. Failing to give the shooter a calibration and disturbing the popper means you have to give the shooter a reshoot (you don't give him the popper hit for free). I'm surprised no one at the range pointed this out.

If it's any consolation, once the RO on the stage made his mistake, and once any other person touched or shot the popper, your rival should have been given a reshoot and might have won the stage anyway.

Lessons learned:

1. Don't give away hits because that's unfair to other shooters.

2. Don't compound one scoring mistake by letting it slide instead of applying the propper remedy (in this case a reshoot).

Reshoots, either mandatory or at the shooter's option, are a last resort, but they must be used when they are the only fair remedy.

Richard Schennberg