George D Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 I was practising slow fire strings at the range with a revolver and decided to work the trigger once after the last live shot. This wasn't the same as the random empty case exercise as I knew the gun wasn't going to fire. I was surpised that after the trigger released I pulled the gun low and slightly left. I continued with this exercise with both the revolver and a 45 auto, each time deliberatly concentrating on not "flinching?" on the dummy shot but while the flinch lessened in degree, it remained present. Has anyone else tried this exercise? This doesn't occur when dry firing, so is it a mental problem or a muscle memory problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 With every fiber of your being, try and isolate that trigger finger (not always easy)... Nothing 'spose to move but the trigger finger. I have to remind myself all the time. When I pay attention to my "remindings" I see bullets in the center of targets....... works for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George D Posted April 18, 2003 Author Share Posted April 18, 2003 My six shots fall in the 10 ring (6" highx4" wide) at 25 yards and I assume that the recoil anticipation is in there too. I recall another thread on the old board talked about this recoil reaction which could be detected with the dummy-round exercise. But when it happens, despite all mental concentration efforts and knowing the next round is a dummy round, I suspect that there may be a repetitive muscle memory factor as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2alpha Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 There is no physical without the mental. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 I can't find the thread but there is an old discussion about the shooter's natural reaction to the timing of the pistol. What you are observing may not be a flinch at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 Ditto to what Ron said. BE covers this in the BOOK very clearly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBF Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 Muscles have no memory, they only respond to stimulus, it comes from the mind. However, that is the hardest damn thing to control. I suppose if it doesn't happen during dry fire, that leaves the options sort of limited. But as mentioned, it could be due to the desire to pull the muzzle back down after the shot. The important thing IMHO is that the movement occurs AFTER the bullet leaves the barrel. Travis F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim in WA Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 I think the differentiation between "recoil anticipation" and "flinch" is if the movement causes random, wild shots, i.e. you can't call them. For me, group shooting with dry firing mixed in is a good way to detect this. When I practice with my revolver I sometimes purposely "fire" a seventh shot at the end of the group to see if I'm anticipating recoil. It seems to help scramble the mind/trigger finger link to keep the motion isolated. While I don't recommend it a marginal light hammer spring in a 625 S&W with hard primers really trains you in a plate match. At my last I had 1-2 misfires /cylinder and had to row the gun twice around to get all the rounds off. The amusing part is I could go fast enough to still clear the rack before my opponent and avoid a reload. Kind of related, I find that if I try to go too fast with my 1911, my trigger seems to turn into a "hand spasm". I keep rereading the book on "visual patience", but on close type 1 targets I currently have a speed limit that my eye, mind, and trigger finger disengage at. I'm trying to figure out how to dry fire to overcome this and keep the wrist passive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 IMO, The difference is making the gun fire or letting the gun fire. You have to allow yourself to believe that your finger knows what to do. You know that you can dryfire without moving the sights. Know that you shoot without moving the sights. Don't make the gun fire, let the gun fire. The more you try, the harder it will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 Brian's Book covers many aspects of all this... p. 84 - "...the trigger itself is the only moving part on the gun athat you want to cause to move." p. 86 - "The gun will lift and return by itself only if you're not exerting any excess pressure..." p. 90 - "...the timer itself can cause as much tension as anything else." p. 93 - [entire segment on "flinching"... including use of the term 'visual patience' than Jim mentioned...] p. 94 - (one of my fave parts of The Book)[Keeping both eyes open during firing]: "If you can't keep your eyes open when you shoot, there's honestly not much more you can accomplish until that ability is acquired." p. 95 - (my other most fave part of The Book)[Floating the Gun and Becoming One With It] This is not New Age 'stuff', this is solid shooting advice. (Then there's MY two cents:) There's one thing that I still want done... To foster belief in one's gun: Join WITH it!'s the answer... (Like partners--a dancer!) The Shooter and Gun--ALWAYS one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 There's one thing that I still want done...To foster belief in one's gun: Join WITH it!'s the answer... (Like partners--a dancer!) The Shooter and Gun--ALWAYS one![/color] Thats what I'm talking about....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBurkett Posted April 20, 2003 Share Posted April 20, 2003 If your consistently shooting a group, your most likely not flinching. It would be "timing". Sounds like your slightly overtiming the gun if it stopped a little low and a little left. The left most likely comes from the right hand twist in the barrel. Might me over compensating for it. It is most difficult to fire the perfect unanticipated shot. Jim, Ken Tap found that for him there was a mental "speed limit". To over come this he ran a metronome (sp?) type of device in his earmuff and shot on the clicks. He was able to significantly reduce his time on the bowling pins he was shooting. Just an idea for you. Take care, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 There is no physical without the mental. Yes. And don't confuse dry fire practice with live fire. You train your body-mind to release a shot without disturbing the gun's hold by dry firing, but in IPSC that perfect release is seldom required. That's when "timing" comes in. Then you're job becomes to learn, while shooting, to not anticipate and recover the gun before the shot fires. I think it's extremely important to learn what it feels like to fire a "perfect" shot, if you need to. Because if you don't, you will never be able to shoot accurately. There are no great shooters who can't shoot extremely accurately, if necessary. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 Don't underestimate the amount of "flinch" (recoil anticipation, moving the gun in anticipation of firing, etc) that could be plain old bad habit. And, bad habits can be displaced by continually doing the good thing. I have been focusing on bullseye shooting with a Ruger Comp target .22 (which has negligible recoil) and is unbelieveably accurate. My shooting focus shifts completely from recoil to smooth trigger release and the new "habit" shows improved shooting in all my guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaman Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 recoil anticipation is a particular nasty habit i picked up from the monthly ritual where my sweetie opens the credit card statement and finds out how much i spent on shooting gear, bullet components, or a new blaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 George, revolvers are somewhat different in returning from recoil than autoloaders. Where an autoloader has a slide that will cause a lot of recoil, and return the gun to it's original position, the revolver has inert mass, that will move up because of the force the bullet puts on the gun, and return to it's original position, because of gravity and muscle tension (my opinion). With muscle tension I do not neccisarily mean deliberate tension, but also tensin of the muscle, because of the maintaining shooting stance/grip. Especially, with major loads in a not so heavy gun (say 170 PF loads in a 625) and up, this is noticable. Your body has the function of the "slide". If you try the random rounds stuff, you'll probably notice the shots will be on the same spot as they were before. If they are, you're not flinching, but only making sure the gun returns fast and efficiently. Timing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George D Posted April 23, 2003 Author Share Posted April 23, 2003 If your consistently shooting a group, your most likely not flinching. It would be "timing". Thanks to all for the input. "Timing" rather than flinching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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