Vertical foregrips?

[want2race]

...He said "mall ninja"....he he.

For an AR, close quarters, I use the front of the mag well. That's my VFG. Keeps my elbows in and minimizes the "fluff" on the rifle. Perfect? No but it works.

[kurtm]

I feel that the most effective "muzzle strike" happens nano seconds after a very effective "muzzle flash"

In reality weight of the firearm makes a much bigger difference in this area than how it is grasped, but I digress, can you imagine how "awquard" it would be to try bayonet fighting with a pistol grip rear and a VFG, and "muzzle strikes" are a close cousin of the bayonet. Can you imagin a pugil stick with vertical grips...yuck! Not for me...but then I already said that! Kurt M

[mike.45]

I feel that the most effective "muzzle strike" happens nano seconds after a very effective "muzzle flash"

[GIO]

Needed to chime in. I received a Grippod http://www.grippod.com/ for my b-day from my lovely and understanding Bride. I had my doubts but it is pretty useful and the combo bipod/vfg is a neat feature. I am by no means a great 3gunner but it seems to make off-hand shooting easier (more stable) and is quick to use as a pod. My club shoots bring what you have and I don't care about being bumped into open class so it works for me.

GIO

[jacketch]

Vertical foregrips aid in muzzle strikes and weapon retention in cqb area's.

Yes, but wear a cup when making transitions lest you take a VFG strike to the kiwis.

[GIO]

Vertical foregrips aid in muzzle strikes and weapon retention in cqb area's.

Yes, but wear a cup when making transitions lest you take a VFG strike to the kiwis.

True, True. The bride might not be so understanding after that mishap.

gio

[Topmaul]

I ordered a Grip Pod, if figured 20 bucks if it works great if not I will not lose too much sleep over it.

[-JQ-]

I don't think so much about it being on the sternum...but rather think squeeze the teet. as for me it is on the inside of my pect. muscle TOWARD the sternum. I'm more of an MP5 shooter and that is the method learned in the official HK MP5 operators course.

It does feel awkward at first but once learned it gives a great stable platform from which to shoot. Our instructor put a full 30 round mag in a 3" target at 7 yds with this method...one hole. Saw it with my own four eyes...YMMV

[Thomas Moore]

any reviews on this one?

VFG

[Bear1142]

I find the TD VFG's a little thick for my preference, but TD makes a good product and if it works for you, then go with it.

Erik

[rugerp89ipsc]

...He said "mall ninja"....he he.

For an AR, close quarters, I use the front of the mag well. That's my VFG. Keeps my elbows in and minimizes the "fluff" on the rifle. Perfect? No but it works.

Same here, I cannot stand stuff hanging off my rifle. I threw some grip tape on the front of my mag well and used that to keep a tight base. I saw the VFG/bi pod and thought that was cool, but after messing with it, I think just practicing my prone stand is a better investment in time.

A decent sling is probably more worth while if you practice with it.

For competition atleast.

[M118LR]

I am not sure if a Vertical foregrip is a good idea for a rifle you are going to use for 3-gun or carbine matches. Now I use a vertical foregrip when I run my carbine with a suppressor. It works for me. Just my 2 cents on the subjuct.

[Alaskapopo]

Competition is a test, that which is foolish or offers no advantage or doesnt work is quickly abandoned, the Tacticool crowd generally is more concerned with photo opps.

That being said there are tactical assesories that are good but not so good in 3 gun type competition. I have zero first hand experience with the foregrip, It looks to me like just more gadgets to get snagged on a strap or get in the way. Either in competition or combat.

Have to disagree with you. Competition is a game. Tactical rifles are for real life. Vertical foregrips do work well. As a member of the tactical crowd I like them. I have seen more pure crap on gamer guns than I have on tactical guns. Vertical foregrips reduce stress in your wrists when your are clearing high such as going up a stair well. There is a reason VFG are popular with people who have to use their guns for life and death and not just plav.

Pat

[kurtm]

I can see the use of a vfg when we are talking about these little teensy weensy 14.5" barreled AR with absolutely no forened on them to start, once you get a light on there there is no place for your hand. I feel that this is more a forced issue than a "tactical" issue, and anything with that short a barrel really ought to be looked upon as a carbine ( as shold anything in .223 no matter the barrel length ). I find it interesting that any L.E.O. in Alaska would be using a Carbine instead of a rifle, but I guess city cops just don't need much in the way of "rifles". I would like to point out that our fathers C.Q.B.ed thier way across Europe with M1s which are LONG compaired to a M-4 both high and low, and even thier Thompson SMGs didn't have VFGs. I know there are two schools of thought on this, but I guess when gadgets can replace marksmanship I will start to take a closer look! KURTM

[Alaskapopo]

I can see the use of a vfg when we are talking about these little teensy weensy 14.5" barreled AR with absolutely no forened on them to start, once you get a light on there there is no place for your hand. I feel that this is more a forced issue than a "tactical" issue, and anything with that short a barrel really ought to be looked upon as a carbine ( as shold anything in .223 no matter the barrel length ). I find it interesting that any L.E.O. in Alaska would be using a Carbine instead of a rifle, but I guess city cops just don't need much in the way of "rifles". I would like to point out that our fathers C.Q.B.ed thier way across Europe with M1s which are LONG compaired to a M-4 both high and low, and even thier Thompson SMGs didn't have VFGs. I know there are two schools of thought on this, but I guess when gadgets can replace marksmanship I will start to take a closer look! KURTM

Kurt the great majority of patrol rifle shootings occur with in 25 yards. The .223 is the best rifle caliber for leo work due to its limited over penetration. Also short barrels are a lot easier to work with when you are room clearing. Rifles (20 inch AR's) are a poor choice in this line of work due to the fact they are hard to store in gun racks in our cruisers and they are also more difficult to use in confined spaces. Real life is not like a USPSA match where you have plenty of room to move. Also gadgets don't replace marksmanship but some can help you to shoot better. Just like Iron sights are now obsolete except for back up use. Its time to move into the 21st century. As for our fathers used who cares. Times change. Our forefathers used muzzle loaders that does not make them a good choice today.

Pat

Edited January 30, 2008 by Alaskapopo

[kurtm]

Limited over penetration = limited penetration through car doors, glass, dry wall, very heavy clothing ( I hear thats not too uncommon in Alaska ) and rampaging bears that occasionally end up in towns and job sites all the way out to Kiska island. No vertical foregrip will help with those problems. ( This is why I said ALASKA L.E.O.s )

I am all for the "urban rifle" concept, My good friends, the late Bill Black of Littleton P.D. and Rob Rathburn of Denver P.D. were instramental in instituting the the Urban Rifle concepts in conjunction with Clint Smith at Thunder Ranch, to the L.E. world at large, so I do have a minute grasp on the concept. None of these 3 ever thought that the .223 carbines were anything but a ...well ...carbine and no vertical foregrip makes it anything else. Bill Jeans said it best....223 isn't much of a rifle, but it is just dandy as a pistol!

I have tried the VFG to an extent ( Yes Bear I do listen to you ) and for me found them wanting. I have never seen one make a better shooter out of anyone in any of my classes that I,ve given to L.E. both here in the U.S. and overseas, and in many cases caused more "gun handling" problems than they were worth.

In all the training I do I have never seen 4" of barrel to make any difference in room clearing, and I for one like the extra velocity that that 4" gives to an annemic cartridge...but I was the kid that ALWAYS over pumped the Benjamin air-rifle. Compare a guy at "hard Guard" with a pistol with a guy at low ready with a 20" AR and you will see that the muzzel on both is just at about the same place. I AM NOT saying short isn't good..I am saying I haven't seen it make a whole lot of difference.

I would submit to you that your department has way too large a budget for batteries to run your scopes. This money could be spent on "taller" crusiers so you could get longer rifles into them. ( this is ment to be funny, but I don't think your sense of humor at this point will allow you to see it as such)

As for Iron Sights being archaic....so is a B-52, but hey NOTHING WORKS LIKE A BUFF....and it does'nt need a VFG, and neither does a 20" carbine with iron sights! ( also hummor )

I brought up our Fathers to point out that you don't need and sometimes don't even want the newest lattest techno junk that can be crammed onto a firearm. After all high tech is great, untill the batteries run out, and then you will need some grounding in how to shoot your back up iron sights, which of folk that have them aren't even zeroed ( at least the ones I've run into!) And most folks don't know how to use them....but...hey it is peace of mind. N.B.N. Kurt Miller

[Alaskapopo]

Limited over penetration = limited penetration through car doors, glass, dry wall, very heavy clothing ( I hear thats not too uncommon in Alaska ) and rampaging bears that occasionally end up in towns and job sites all the way out to Kiska island. No vertical foregrip will help with those problems. ( This is why I said ALASKA L.E.O.s )

I am all for the "urban rifle" concept, My good friends, the late Bill Black of Littleton P.D. and Rob Rathburn of Denver P.D. were instramental in instituting the the Urban Rifle concepts in conjunction with Clint Smith at Thunder Ranch, to the L.E. world at large, so I do have a minute grasp on the concept. None of these 3 ever thought that the .223 carbines were anything but a ...well ...carbine and no vertical foregrip makes it anything else. Bill Jeans said it best....223 isn't much of a rifle, but it is just dandy as a pistol!

I have tried the VFG to an extent ( Yes Bear I do listen to you ) and for me found them wanting. I have never seen one make a better shooter out of anyone in any of my classes that I,ve given to L.E. both here in the U.S. and overseas, and in many cases caused more "gun handling" problems than they were worth.

In all the training I do I have never seen 4" of barrel to make any difference in room clearing, and I for one like the extra velocity that that 4" gives to an annemic cartridge...but I was the kid that ALWAYS over pumped the Benjamin air-rifle. Compare a guy at "hard Guard" with a pistol with a guy at low ready with a 20" AR and you will see that the muzzel on both is just at about the same place. I AM NOT saying short isn't good..I am saying I haven't seen it make a whole lot of difference.

I would submit to you that your department has way too large a budget for batteries to run your scopes. This money could be spent on "taller" crusiers so you could get longer rifles into them. ( this is ment to be funny, but I don't think your sense of humor at this point will allow you to see it as such)

As for Iron Sights being archaic....so is a B-52, but hey NOTHING WORKS LIKE A BUFF....and it does'nt need a VFG, and neither does a 20" carbine with iron sights! ( also hummor )

I brought up our Fathers to point out that you don't need and sometimes don't even want the newest lattest techno junk that can be crammed onto a firearm. After all high tech is great, untill the batteries run out, and then you will need some grounding in how to shoot your back up iron sights, which of folk that have them aren't even zeroed ( at least the ones I've run into!) And most folks don't know how to use them....but...hey it is peace of mind. N.B.N. Kurt Miller

The .223 carbines we use are for gun calls (man with an gun) not for animal calls. The 870's loaded with breneke slugs take care of the animal calls. As for penetration in clothing that is not an issue. the .223 does just fine on heavy clothing including bullet resistant vests. It is not the best choices on vehicles that point is true. As for wall board and sheet rock that is exacly where we do not want penetration. As for not seeing a 14.5 inch barrel making a difference vs a 20 inch rifle in house clearing only shows you have not done any house clearing. you do not walk around with your pistol exended on a search either.

You are a very good competition shooter and you have a lot of knowledge in that area. But its fairly clear you have no idea on what is needed on a patrol rifle for leo's. Vertical foregrips do serve a purpose, if you don't like them that's fine. But don't knock them as useless because you dont have a use for them.

This is another issue we are going to have to agree to disagree on. As for iron sights not being zero'd I make all of my officers shoot the qualificaiton with both their optic (if they have one) and their irons. I agree that not having your back up irons zerod is foolish.

Take care.

pat

Edited January 30, 2008 by Alaskapopo

[kurtm]

I've been in houses in Alaska and they didn't seem that small!

Hard Guard isn't an "extended" position, but when slicing one of my favorite deserts up I like to be looking with the sights, not all crunched up with the firearm in close, not alined with the eye. Do I miss understand your stance on this stand??

Don't tell the departments I work with that I don't know what belongs on a rifle, I,ve got em snowed so far. Let,s let that be our little secret

Breneke slugs??? Me like!!!

House clearing?? I thought you ment house cleaning. DOH!!( I never will get used to English )I have never got a 20" rifle tangled up with a Hoover, except that darn vfg gets into the cord

Hey you forgot to point out that B-52s need batteries

You seem to know alot about my background, and what was it you said I did outside of match shooting again?? I bet you thought I worked for a company that makes VFGs

I propose our next debate should be on "tactical hatchets" free floating heads as opposed to fixed heads, and how to carry one durring house cleaning...ah er...house clearing. KURTM

[Alaskapopo]

I've been in houses in Alaska and they didn't seem that small!

Hard Guard isn't an "extended" position, but when slicing one of my favorite deserts up I like to be looking with the sights, not all crunched up with the firearm in close, not alined with the eye. Do I miss understand your stance on this stand??

Don't tell the departments I work with that I don't know what belongs on a rifle, I,ve got em snowed so far. Let,s let that be our little secret

Breneke slugs??? Me like!!!

House clearing?? I thought you ment house cleaning. DOH!!( I never will get used to English )I have never got a 20" rifle tangled up with a Hoover, except that darn vfg gets into the cord

Hey you forgot to point out that B-52s need batteries

You seem to know alot about my background, and what was it you said I did outside of match shooting again?? I bet you thought I worked for a company that makes VFGs

I propose our next debate should be on "tactical hatchets" free floating heads as opposed to fixed heads, and how to carry one durring house cleaning...ah er...house clearing. KURTM

Kurt we have trailer houses up here and other slum type apartments where space is very tight. I have no idea what you do for a living but based on your comments I doubt its as a police officer.

Pat

[kurtm]

Guess you guys need to do "trailer house clearing" like we do in the lower 48..tornados and hurricanes.

Nope not a POPO, but I do train a bunch of them every year, in firearms use, not trailer court clearing. Lets see last year 2 state, 5 local and one gov. agency, Bolivian Pentahote, Hungarian drug police, and the Yugoslavian border police interdiction teams. I am not sure how big your "slum Apartments" are but I would assume they are built to code for the most part so must have the obligatory 8' ceiling 28" door ways, much bigger than the true slums of El Alto above La Paz Bolivia where I was teaching CQB shooting for 3 weeks last year. Hell I couldn't even stand up in these little hovels. But I digress. I find it hard to beleive that there are slums in Alaska as you all get that big Govment Check from the oil and gas revenue. ( Hummor again..I know they don't teach that in your acadamies up there)

Do you think a "tactical" hatchet should have an insulated handle in case you cut through some wiring? Or are the thick "tactical" gloves enough? The whole thought of when and where to deploy said "tac-hac" is intreguing what are your views? Do we need "tactical hatchet" armorers, or can we trust the operators to sharpen them themselves?

[kellyn]

What is this AR15.com? I am more tactical than you???

My top 10 comments on this last display of tactical prowess:

1) This is a competition shooting forum. Not a place to debate who or what is more tactical.

2) I believe Ted Puente and Erik Lund are the only "big dawg" shooters who use VFGs in shooting competitions (but I could be wrong)

3) Kurt is not a LEO but I would really not want to gunfight against him (unless it was with a pistol).

4) I have seen more crap mounted on so called tactical guns that many gamer guns (just look at Mike Voigt's AR15)

5) Getting shot with a gamer gun would suck. Getting shot with a tactical gun would suck too.

6) VFGs do have a place on tactical rifles, especially if start hanging lasers and flashlights, etc, etc. on the handguard.

7) Most of the rifles the Allies won both WWI and WWII did not have VFGs

8) Allied soliders did not have to worry about holding the foreend of an M1/SMLE/O3A3 etc. with a bunch of lasers, flashlights, etc etc. If they had they might have put a VFG on there.

9) Kyle Lamb likes VFGs on tactical rifles. I have never seen him compete with one.

10) Kurt cannot spell worth a damn.

[Bear1142]

I have tried the VFG to an extent ( Yes Bear I do listen to you )

HA! I KNEW IT!!!

And Kurt, as your friend I'm sorry to agree with Kelly but..... +1 on #10

I love you man!

Erik

Edited January 31, 2008 by Bear1142

[kurtm]

There is an N in there?? DAM...N... I never knew!!

Kelly, I'm telling Bennie about # 6...boy are you going to be in trouble.

Erik, I love you too man. I thought I would show you the rifles I have tried vfgs on so far...well rifle and carbine.

I am proudest of the 92 Winchester that I picked up in Urulu Bolivia and refinished! It has a white light/ lazer, vertical foregrip, 2X-7X Leopold scope, and Smith Enterprises muzzle brake, and back up buck horn sights, it is truley A.T.A.S.

Are we going to see you in Texas for a little carbine shooting?? Kurt

[Alaskapopo]

What is this AR15.com? I am more tactical than you???

My top 10 comments on this last display of tactical prowess:

1) This is a competition shooting forum. Not a place to debate who or what is more tactical.

2) I believe Ted Puente and Erik Lund are the only "big dawg" shooters who use VFGs in shooting competitions (but I could be wrong)

3) Kurt is not a LEO but I would really not want to gunfight against him (unless it was with a pistol).

4) I have seen more crap mounted on so called tactical guns that many gamer guns (just look at Mike Voigt's AR15)

5) Getting shot with a gamer gun would suck. Getting shot with a tactical gun would suck too.

6) VFGs do have a place on tactical rifles, especially if start hanging lasers and flashlights, etc, etc. on the handguard.

7) Most of the rifles the Allies won both WWI and WWII did not have VFGs

8) Allied soliders did not have to worry about holding the foreend of an M1/SMLE/O3A3 etc. with a bunch of lasers, flashlights, etc etc. If they had they might have put a VFG on there.

9) Kyle Lamb likes VFGs on tactical rifles. I have never seen him compete with one.

10) Kurt cannot spell worth a damn.

I did no start the tacitcal debate rather I responded to a jab at tactical shooters liking photo opps. The simple truth is competition is not gun fighting not even close. Just because someone does well on a course design they know ahead of time against targets that do not shoot back does not mean they would prevail in a gun fight. I am relatively new to USPSA (about a year and a half now). But I have been an officer for 8 years. I worked on a narcotics task force for 3 years of that time where service high risk serach warrants was fairly common. I have also been trained as a member of a entry team and as a sniper.

The simple fact is people who have their experience based in competition shooting have no clue what is needed in real life. That seems to be the case with Kurt. He no doubt is a great shooter and can teach people the fundamentals of shooting. But he lacks knowledge on tactics. He recommends 20 inch guns but its obvious he has never had to slice the pie (searching technique) in a typical home with a 20 inch AR. Short guns have thier place. In fact a 10 inch AR is about idea for house clearing and a 14.5 inch guns is even a touch on the long side. I am not than happy not to talk about real world issues so long as other posters don't take jabs at myself and others who carry guns for a living. I won't give Kurt advice on what makes the best three gun rifle if he stears clear of recommending what I should carry to protect myself and the people I serve. Those are two very different subjects.

Take care.

Pat

[kurtm]

My house growing up was sooo small that even the mice had round shoulders.

I don't see why you wouldn't give me advice, everyone else does, what to use, what to think, where to go

Now before Kelly get,s to mad at me, All I will say is that "you need to get out of "the real world" a little more often!" ( Satatement compliments of Eric Miller....if anyone has ever really met him! )

Okay Kelly I quit, I will try to be a good boy for a while