ken hebert Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 (edited) Guys, I talked my club into trying a bit of Steel Challenge type shooting last weekend and they loved it. Now, I've got to actually decide on targets to buy. My questions are: and keep in mind I'm realistically expecting about 20 to 25 shooters a match, #1: how many stages should I set for each match (we shoot it 6 times a year) #2: how many of each target size should I buy (10", 12", and 18"x24") #3 what thickness target can I get away with, 1/4" or 3/8" #4 do I need to specify that my shooters have to shoot minor? #5 what should I charge for a match? My current rate is $10 for a 4 stage USPSA pistol match and $15 for a 4 to 5 stage 3-gun. In the back of my mind I've got this idea that I want to set 4 stages per match, and then the other 4 for the following match. That sound like the right thing to do, keep things fresh...? If I did the math right, from looking at the 9 stages posted here, you would need 9 10" circles, 23 12" circles, and 13 18"x24" rectangles for everything. I don't have an unlimited budget, but I do have some wiggle room. If it were you, what would you do? Edited October 30, 2007 by ken hebert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ong45 Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 If you only do 4 stages a match , lets say outer limits, 5 to go, showdown and accelerator then... speed option, pendulum, smoke and hope and roundabout This way you would only need 6- 18 X 24's 13 - 12's 7- 10's You could also shoot 4 stages and then reset for the other 4 time permitting. There's probably a better way to shuffle this to reduce the amount of plates required. 3/8 thick plates are better, makes the 18X24 kinda heavy though. It's a good idea to have spares on hand. Once the steel and boxes are paid for the only cost is paint and maybe scoresheets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougCarden Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 6 18x24s will allow you to set up two stages (Smoke and hope and any of the others) You can just buy 12in plates for now and buy the 10s later. You can shoot the courses with the 12s, but for the real deal you will need the 10s for Five to Go......amazing how 2in makes a big difference. I would get the best steel you can, armor plate would be best, but my stuff (mild Steel) is ok with minor loads for the 4th year. If you dont get AR rated steel I would STRONGLY suggest that you limit it to minor loads, unless you dont mind replacing the steel regularly. It is amazing how much damage factory .40 ammo can do....... Good luck! DougC oh yeah, push the .22 as well. IT is too much fun and everyone has one.....or should! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 The 18x24's are both heavy and expensive in good steel. Get good steel-- you can't police everybody, and some joker will think that 88 grain bullets at 1600 fps is a good 'minor' steel load. There are only 3 stages that are all round plates-- Roundabout, Pendulum and Five-to-Go. 10" plates are on Five To Go (4), Showdown (2), Pendulum (2) and Accelerator (1), Speed Option needs 1 18x24, Outer Limits, Showdown and Accelerator 2, Smoke and Hope 4. If you're on a tight budget and have bays for 4 stages, only get 4 gongs. Then you can run S&H and the other 3 round-plate stages, or any two 2-gong stages and two round-plate-only stages (note that you won't be able to do the entire match in just one shuffle of the plates). Adding another gong helps if you like Speed Option and more variations at the match. Four gongs does have the effect of making it so you only rarely run Smoke and Hope since the other 3 stages are always the same. If you've got the $, get 6 or 8 so you can do the whole thing with one plate shuffle. If you get 6 10" plates, you can run 5-To-Go and one of the other 10" plate stages (PD, SD, AC), or all the others except 5TG. With 7, you can always run 5TG, AC and one of PD and SD Rearranging after 4 stages can be done with a little planning. The easiest things to move are the boxes and round plates You have to move two gongs for Smoke & Hope, but careful planning will reveal that Showdown and S&H share two gong placements, and Outer Limits and Speed Option's gongs aren't far from where they sit either. Unless everybody is a Steel Challenge nut, plan on doing some alternative stages every so often to keep it fun. Tall and short stands are pretty cheap and make for good made-up stages, as do oldies but goodies like Flying M, Triple Thread and Double Trouble. We often throw in a Texas Star (best 2 of 3 or so) as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 I've been Match Director for our local club's steel challenge matches for the past few years. Our steel is 3/8's. It seems to be good steel, but it's not T-1 or better. I think our steel has held up as well as it does because it is hung loose on the posts...which I think is vital. It has a chance to give a bit to bleed off energy when the bullet strikes it. We don't say the shooters have to shoot minor, but many do. (you might expect your USPSA shooter will want to shoot their USPSA loads) We like to run 5 stages. Running 4 wouldn't do it for me. A simple stage, like a version of Double Trouble, could get you an extra stage while saving a bit on resources. If I had the shooting bays and the props...I'd run more stages. You can get by with much smaller squads for SC. Reset is merely splashing some white paint on up to 5 targets between shooters. So, spreading out the shooters over smaller squads makes sense...less down time. Remember though, you are usually shooting 25+ rounds per stage, so be careful not to make your shooters bring more ammo than they are comfortable with. We don't run the current "Steel Challenge" stages every match. We mix it up. There are other SC stages, and you can mix and match and run just about anything you want. We charge $10, which is kinda cheap. Reshoots are $5. Reshoots with a .22 rimfire are free. We run reshoots on a second go-through only. Letting a shooter shoot twice on their first time through sucks a bunch, IMO. A half a case of $0.98 white paint from Wal-mart is about what we use up per match. Setup and tear-down are pretty easy. As James said, you could move the plates around real easily to get yourself a whole different stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 CJ runs their matches with a single relay now. They allow shooters to shoot two guns with the stipulation that they must be able to run out of the same holster. (Some people are running a smaller carry gun as their second, some are running a Ciener .22 conversion on the re-shoot, some are switching between Limited and Open guns on the same platform.) Squads are adjusted, so that the number of entries balance out, even if the numbers of actual shooters don't. CJ charges for re-shoots, but it's a reduced rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 Yeah, that is the way to do it...equalized the number of entries on the squads...if you choose to run it that way. IMO, you need bigger squads (actual people) to do that well. Requiring the same holster helps, but those reshoot'ers seem to always be off messing around with some thing or another...while others are helping run the stage. Different ways to skin the beast... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayoupirate Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 You might consider contacting Elliot Aysen. He's the guy who designed and built the Speed-E-Rack for Jerry M. He also builds the best plate racks, target stands, Movers and steel plate equipment I've seen. His Website is at: http://speed-e-rack.com and the direct e-mail is: elliotannie@yahoo.com He doesn't stock any props or steel plates, but builds to order. Give him a holler and see what he can do for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fireant Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Does anyone have any of these non current stages in word or pdf form they could share? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 For 20 to 25 shooters, you should have at least 3 stages set up. Preferrably 4. This keeps it fast and eliminates bottlenecks. Also, consider using plastic survey "whiskers" to plot out your stages. This makes setup super easy to setup. Just place the stands on the color-coded markers and go. Locally, about 200 rounds is the most anyone wants to shoot in a match, so I would do no more than 4+4 stages. Or 3+3 and shootoffs. 3/8" is the minimum for cold roll steel. I charged $15 with $5 going to my home range, so I got $10/shooter. Opinions vary wildly on what's a "fair" match price. Some want it to be $5, some wouldn't care if it was $25, they'd show up and shoot. If you're paying for steel out of your pocket, you're going to have a tough time making it seem worth your while for less than $15/shooter in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseywales Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Does anyone have any of these non current stages in word or pdf form they could share? You may find some here World Class Steel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 http://www.shred2.net/~shred/gallery/OtherSteelMatchStages AustinMike set one up the other day that was sort of like one he'd seen elsewhere (probably one of AlamoShooter's matches) that was fun-- make an 8'x4' shooting box, and use two goings and 3 plates. Hide the two non-stop plates behind the gongs such that you can't see both of the plates from any spot in the box. Let the shooter start anywhere in the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 I like the steel that I got from GT Targets 3/8 AR 400 holds up vet good even with a hot major load. The AR 200 plates that I have "pot"up with the hotter loads. It looks like you are not to far from Austin or San Antonio I suggest you make a trip to Austins match in La-Grange to look at the targets and or my match in San Antonio. I have a mixed bag of steel with mild steel - to AR400 $15.00 is OK as you will always want to upgrade and add more steel and or props. When up grade cost comes out of your pocket it stings as the years go by. Jamie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fireant Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Thanks for the links, lots of good stuff there. I like the hidden plate idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikegot38 Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 CJ runs their matches with a single relay now. They allow shooters to shoot two guns with the stipulation that they must be able to run out of the same holster. (Some people are running a smaller carry gun as their second, some are running a Ciener .22 conversion on the re-shoot, some are switching between Limited and Open guns on the same platform.) Squads are adjusted, so that the number of entries balance out, even if the numbers of actual shooters don't. CJ charges for re-shoots, but it's a reduced rate. Nik: When do you run the Steel matches at CJ? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken hebert Posted December 13, 2007 Author Share Posted December 13, 2007 Got my steel in yesterday. Went with GT Targets, and got 6 18x24's, 13 12", and 9 10" targets plus the target caps. The steel looks great and the welds are solid with plenty of penetration. The timing here is impeccable, considering the recent purchase of SC by the USPSA. Just in time, as I'll be holding my first official match on Sunday. I appreciate the help guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 (edited) [admin note: merged threads] First off, please limit this thread to facts rather than pontificate on the wisdom of a decision made (the dicision to buy Steel Challenge). I located the stages for the Steel Challenge at this LINK (or try: http://www.steelchallenge.com/steelchallenge/2006/stages.htm ). Looks like an interesting mix of plate sizes - apparently all static. Thought of a few Q.'s that might come in handy for clubs that want to participate. 1) If a current USPSA club were to put on a Steel Challenge with all the stages, what would it cost to purchase the steel? 2) What steel in current USPSA inventory could be used? (i.e. could a round falling plate be somehow safely mounted to meet the Steel Challenge target requirements - without removing the base?). 3) With the lower power factors typically used, could a lesser grade of steel be used - possibly at a lower cost? Would regular USPSA Open loads for 115 grn + @ minimum 165 PF be allowed? I ask since it might be possible to source steel from non traditional vendors if it does not require specialty steel to withstand the usual ammo. Again - its just a Q. I know our current open ammo would chew up much of the steel that cowboys/SASS shooters use. This sport seems likely to come to my area (A8). Being as its now part of USPSA, I would certainly give it a try. C. Edited December 14, 2007 by Flexmoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 Got my steel in yesterday. Went with GT Targets, and got 6 18x24's, 13 12", and 9 10" targets plus the target caps. The steel looks great and the welds are solid with plenty of penetration. The timing here is impeccable, considering the recent purchase of SC by the USPSA. Just in time, as I'll be holding my first official match on Sunday.I appreciate the help guys. You will be happy = Can you, or did you tell him how you found out about his steel? As in Steel Challenge shooters spread the word. please let him know that it was networking that got him the sell. Jamie I will try and make it one of your shoots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 I dont' know that there is much steel that could be used in common. A couple of the courses I believe use poppers but that is about it. On the upside, simple round and square plates are much cheaper than buying poppers with the bases on them. Our club uses simple cutout plates with a hole in the top that mount on rebar stands. A stage of five plates and stands probably cost about $300.00 ish? It's easy enough to buy a set of plates and move them around after a squad shoots until the club gets enough participation to justify wholesale entry into steel. I would not use a lower grade of steel. Even if it will hold up to minor steel loads, you will innevitably get someone that wants to shoot their major open load for practice. (I always did). Especially at the beginning when people are just getting their feet wet. Also, light high velocity bullets chew up steel regardless of what power factor. A 95 grain bullet at 1100 fps will still chew up plates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 I dont' know that there is much steel that could be used in common. A couple of the courses I believe use poppers but that is about it. On the upside, simple round and square plates are much cheaper than buying poppers with the bases on them. Our club uses simple cutout plates with a hole in the top that mount on rebar stands. A stage of five plates and stands probably cost about $300.00 ish? It's easy enough to buy a set of plates and move them around after a squad shoots until the club gets enough participation to justify wholesale entry into steel. I would not use a lower grade of steel. Even if it will hold up to minor steel loads, you will innevitably get someone that wants to shoot their major open load for practice. (I always did). Especially at the beginning when people are just getting their feet wet. Also, light high velocity bullets chew up steel regardless of what power factor. A 95 grain bullet at 1100 fps will still chew up plates. I shoot the zero 95 at close to 1300 and my steel is fine. less than 1/2 my steel is AR400 the 1/2" boiler plate steel I keep back at past 18 yards. It is chewed up a bit. How the steel is hung has some to do with how it "soaks up the bullet" hanging it firm but with some movment will cut down on backsplater. 3/8" is ok for Ar 100 and better but the 400 + I think is the best buy. 1/4" plates will eat you up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgkeller Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 Here is one source with SC stage packages. Posted for cost info only. http://www.dswelding.com/packages.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 IIRC MGM will sell a complete SC set for about $7K. The guy I talked to said they don't sell many sets... Our club had a bunch of paper target stands converted to paper-and-steel stands by welding an additional vertical piece of steel tubing in the center of the stand. That's a little unbalanced with the 18x24's, but works well for all the others. I'd get good steel. It lasts forever and a 'minor only' requirement turns off a lot of shooters that don't want to work up another load, or figure out how to make their gun run light loads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 Here is one source with SC stage packages. Posted for cost info only.http://www.dswelding.com/packages.html That link features pictures of every stage from the shooter's persepective - excellent! & thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken hebert Posted December 16, 2007 Author Share Posted December 16, 2007 (edited) Got my steel in yesterday. Went with GT Targets, and got 6 18x24's, 13 12", and 9 10" targets plus the target caps. The steel looks great and the welds are solid with plenty of penetration. The timing here is impeccable, considering the recent purchase of SC by the USPSA. Just in time, as I'll be holding my first official match on Sunday.I appreciate the help guys. You will be happy = Can you, or did you tell him how you found out about his steel? As in Steel Challenge shooters spread the word. please let him know that it was networking that got him the sell. Jamie I will try and make it one of your shoots. I went with GT because I'd already gotten almost all of my metal target stands from him earlier, for both of the ranges I run. That, and his prices were VERY reasonable, like less than half of the other popular big name steel vendor (no names mentioned) although I did buy several rifle targets from them at the same time. Karl was also great to deal with, kept me updated on my order, as he was short on two pieces and let me know ahead of time. The order was shipped in a sturdy crate prepared by Karl and arrived in excellent condition. I also utilised his target caps, and they are equally well made. As a welder myself I inspected his work and was impressed. Plenty of penetration on the welds and they all have excellent caps on them. I will be doing business with GT Targets again. Jamie, welcome here any time. Probably see you at Double Tap, Summer Blast,... ect. Edited December 16, 2007 by ken hebert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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