Limited 6" SightTracker?

[Matt Cheely]

The slide is light, but the barrel is too heavy. I could mill the heck out of it and get it to weigh around the same as a 5" bull barrel, then I might like it.

Maybe I'm crazy delusional right now becasue I just pulled a 21 hour day at work, but... what if you did your bull barrel fluting, then did like a shotgun style "vented rib" on the sight tracker barrel? Mill a few short slots in the rib to cut the weight, only visible with the slide back. Talk about cool factor!

OK, gotta sleep now.

Oooooo. Not a bad idea.

[norbs007]

This is my version of the 6" Limited 40 (with bull barrel) known as the SaberCat built by Johnny of Limcat Custom. I've shot a few hundred rounds in practice and will shoot a match this weekend. Johnny delivered it with a heavy 16 lb. recoil spring which dipped the gun during fire but I've since swapped in a 12lb. ISMI spring and that made a huge difference. Now, it shoots very flat and soft compared to my full profile 5" WildCat. I'm still experimenting with different loads such as AutoComp and maybe N320 down the road. I currently shoot 180gr. Bear Creeks with 5.3gr. of N340. As far as handling, I don't experience the nose heavy weight although it's been lightened up front both inside and out - in my opinion it handles like a shorty open gun with out the C-more sight.

So that was yours... Got a couple of pictures of your gun that Johnny sent me. So he finally used SaberCat huh.

Anyway, nice gun man...he'll be building me one but with an inch off under the front of the slide. I'll make sure he puts the right recoil spring in.

[ogiebb]

The slide is light, but the barrel is too heavy. I could mill the heck out of it and get it to weigh around the same as a 5" bull barrel, then I might like it.

Maybe I'm crazy delusional right now becasue I just pulled a 21 hour day at work, but... what if you did your bull barrel fluting, then did like a shotgun style "vented rib" on the sight tracker barrel? Mill a few short slots in the rib to cut the weight, only visible with the slide back. Talk about cool factor!

OK, gotta sleep now.

Oooooo. Not a bad idea.

Matt,

i like what your thinking

i hope mine gets done right away...

[Sean Gaines]

so is it legal or not (uspsa)?

[jasmap]

so is it legal or not (uspsa)?

Not currently legal in the 6" version.

[Godzilla]

so is it legal or not (uspsa)?

It is not legal for USPSA but it is legal for Steel Challenge matches including the US National Steel Championship and the S&W Steel Shoot Regionals.

I spoke with Dave Thomas, Mike Voigt, Bruce Gary and John Amidon about this issue several times, in fact I am sure they are tired of taking to me about it. They have been more than pleasant to me about it but there is the right way and the wrong way to get things done. They do not have any issue about using the Schuemann 6" Tribrid barrel in limited except that the rules (for other reasons) do not allow it. It is the only thing except optics and compensators that can not legally be put on a limited gun. Every other part can be changed out except one of our barrels. It is not fair but it is the rules that we have currently in place.

The real problem with the rules is that the limited divison should be allowed to be an experimental division like open except with iron sights and no compensation. No one really carries a limited gun. Move on.

My thoughts are:

Production: Should be true production guns, no trigger work or alterations - price considerations for fairness for entry to our sport.

Single Stack: Remains the same, every basic option has been offered and built - no questions.

Revolver: Remains the same.

Limited: Like open but iron sights and no compensation. Must be on a frame and slide that has met the 500 production number (STI, Para etc). All options go.

Open: Same

These changes would allow US to modify our guns to run them in Steel Matches or USPSA Matches without having to worry about breaking any rules. We want to grow both sports so please make it easy for us to complete in both of them and not chose between them because our gun is not allowed. We all are law abiding citizens and want to do the right thing. The 6" Tribrid guns allows the older eyes to continue in limited and reduce the felt recoil for those of us with tendon issues. Besides that damnit, they LOOK GOOD.

Next issue, how do we get this changed in our favor?

I wish I knew. No really the USPSA is full of smart folks who want to do the right thing. We just need to convince them that this is in everyone's best interest. So get on your computer, phone or see them at the matches and let them know where you stand. Have everyone talk to their area director and let them know what your concerns are. The more times that they hear this from different people, the more likely it will be a higher priority to change. They have a lot of work and handle the higher priorities first.

Mike Calloway

mike@schuemann.com

Edited June 4, 2009 by Flexmoney

[G-ManBart]

Now get started.

Mike Calloway

mike@schuemann.com

Great idea Mike! Now stop typing and get back to making awesome barrels

[ogiebb]

Good Post Mikey.....

now i hope it becomes legal soon

[Sean Gaines]

we can shoot a 5in gun and we can shoot a 6in gun. you can shoot a 5in sight tracker,but you cant shoot a 6in sightracker. go figure?????????? if its a matter of 500 being produced. thats kinda silly. If its because it offers too much of a competitive advantage thats another thing. Personally I don't think it offers a competitive advantage. its the indian not the bow. I know everyone's heard that on. pick your cliche

[lcs]

we can shoot a 5in gun and we can shoot a 6in gun. you can shoot a 5in sight tracker,but you cant shoot a 6in sightracker. go figure?????????? if its a matter of 500 being produced. thats kinda silly. If its because it offers too much of a competitive advantage thats another thing. Personally I don't think it offers a competitive advantage. its the indian not the bow. I know everyone's heard that on. pick your cliche

Over a month ago I sent an email to all Area Directors stating pretty much the same facts, "5 inch, 6 inch, approved for Limited Division and 5 inch with front sight mounted on barrel is legal- why not a 6 inch with a front sight mounted on the barrel legal for Limited Division?"

Two Area Directors replied. One answer was "Not approved" and the other AD said he would get back to me. The AD did as promised, (several email replies) and the final reply was "NROI says "Must have 500 and paperwork submitted".

I appreciate the AD taking his time to help.

It is obvious by the number of posts and the fact this thread has been active for two years that USPSA members are serious about getting this modification approved for six inch 2011.

Indeed there must be demand or SVI, STI, and Millenium Custom would not bother to offer a six inch 2011 with the front sight mounted on the barrel.

I understand "Rules", but is this rule as applied to this situation really helping USPSA members or hurting our members and the sport?

[Sean Gaines]

its hurting gun makers. They could be building 6in sightrackers, and people are on the sidelines until it can be approved. we know eventually their will be 500 made its just a matter of when. Its a silly rule

[G-ManBart]

Over a month ago I sent an email to all Area Directors stating pretty much the same facts, "5 inch, 6 inch, approved for Limited Division and 5 inch with front sight mounted on barrel is legal- why not a 6 inch with a front sight mounted on the barrel legal for Limited Division?"

Two Area Directors replied. One answer was "Not approved" and the other AD said he would get back to me. The AD did as promised, (several email replies) and the final reply was "NROI says "Must have 500 and paperwork submitted".

I appreciate the AD taking his time to help.

It is obvious by the number of posts and the fact this thread has been active for two years that USPSA members are serious about getting this modification approved for six inch 2011.

Indeed there must be demand or SVI, STI, and Millenium Custom would not bother to offer a six inch 2011 with the front sight mounted on the barrel.

I understand "Rules", but is this rule as applied to this situation really helping USPSA members or hurting our members and the sport?

I don't know if it's hurting members or the sport, but I think it's kind of silly. I just don't see the difference between a 6" gun and a 6" gun with the sight mounted on a barrel rib being anything remotely significant. It's certainly not going to start a Limited arms race where everyone has to get a new gun built....heck, 6" guns alone didn't do that.

Personally, even if they were approved, and I was having a new Limited gun built now, it would simply be a 6" gun and probably not a sight tracker style....well, unless Mike pressured me into it

Edited June 4, 2009 by G-ManBart

[want2race]

This is my version of the 6" Limited 40 (with bull barrel) known as the SaberCat built by Johnny of Limcat Custom. I've shot a few hundred rounds in practice and will shoot a match this weekend. Johnny delivered it with a heavy 16 lb. recoil spring which dipped the gun during fire but I've since swapped in a 12lb. ISMI spring and that made a huge difference. Now, it shoots very flat and soft compared to my full profile 5" WildCat. I'm still experimenting with different loads such as AutoComp and maybe N320 down the road. I currently shoot 180gr. Bear Creeks with 5.3gr. of N340. As far as handling, I don't experience the nose heavy weight although it's been lightened up front both inside and out - in my opinion it handles like a shorty open gun with out the C-more sight.

Nice gun, but it's not a sight tracker is it?

I fluted my 6 inch bull barrel. It doesn't reduce enough weight to make it worth it. After I fluted it, I then turned it down to mimic a cone style barrel. Only then was a light enough for my preference. I like the vented rib idea for the sight tracker barrel though.

[jasmap]

I am pretty sure I can guess the answer but is there any new info on this? I have a badass 6" gun that Matt Cheely built me but I'd like to give the 6" "sighttracker" style gun a try.

I haven't seen that it's been made legal but I am hoping I just missed it. Maybe Mike finally hounded them enough!

[Sean Gaines]

Since it is made in liimited guns, where you can pretty much do what you want within the rules. I think there is no way of them knowing if 500 have been produced. not that it would make sense but what if someone where to buy a 6 in sightracker barrel, and decide whey want a 5" instead, and they chop it off, so you cant look at the barrel makers. What do we have to do, make a list with 500 signatures. Its such a silly rule, like I said it will reach 500, or is it 500 5" sightrackers and they will let you do 6"sightrackers, or you have to make 500 6'' sightrackers before it would be approved. Well if its against the rules, who is going to unass the money to buy a gun that is not legal. what a crock of$%%^%. , If thats the case how did they get the strayer,VOIGHT 5'' sightracker passed

Why does 500 rule apply anyway, its not a different gun? if thats the case every custom gun builder would have to build 500 guns in one particular style, to be able to build one style of gun.

its a 6'' gun with an aftermarket barrel, and we installed a sight on the end of the barrel, and redistributed the weight on the barrel as opposed to the slide. you can cut slide lightning serrations on a barrel, what if I took a real big bull barrel and cut it into a sightracker looking setup, why would that break the rules.

the slide is lightend, how is that breaking the rules

what if I had a 6" bull barrel put on a 5 in slide and attached a dovetail on the bull barrel and put a sight on it. would that break the rules, maybe because the barrel protrudes past the slide, then again what if you took a 6'' bull barrel on a 6'' slide attach a sight on the barrel, cut a lighning cut where the sight could stick out of the lightning cut, how would that be illegal?

the basic premise is you still are using iron sights, its not a scope

Using this setup is not going to make you an instant gm

Just pass it!

My.02cents

Sean

[splashdown]

Since it is made in liimited guns, where you can pretty much do what you want within the rules. I think there is no way of them knowing if 500 have been produced. not that it would make sense but what if someone where to buy a 6 in sightracker barrel, and decide whey want a 5" instead, and they chop it off, so you cant look at the barrel makers. What do we have to do, make a list with 500 signatures. Its such a silly rule, like I said it will reach 500, or is it 500 5" sightrackers and they will let you do 6"sightrackers, or you have to make 500 6'' sightrackers before it would be approved. Well if its against the rules, who is going to unass the money to buy a gun that is not legal. what a crock of$%%^%. , If thats the case how did they get the strayer,VOIGHT 5'' sightracker passed

Why does 500 rule apply anyway, its not a different gun? if thats the case every custom gun builder would have to build 500 guns in one particular style, to be able to build one style of gun.

its a 6'' gun with an aftermarket barrel, and we installed a sight on the end of the barrel, and redistributed the weight on the barrel as opposed to the slide. you can cut slide lightning serrations on a barrel, what if I took a real big bull barrel and cut it into a sightracker looking setup, why would that break the rules.

the slide is lightend, how is that breaking the rules

what if I had a 6" bull barrel put on a 5 in slide and attached a dovetail on the bull barrel and put a sight on it. would that break the rules, maybe because the barrel protrudes past the slide, then again what if you took a 6'' bull barrel on a 6'' slide attach a sight on the barrel, cut a lighning cut where the sight could stick out of the lightning cut, how would that be illegal?

the basic premise is you still are using iron sights, its not a scope

Using this setup is not going to make you an instant gm

Just pass it!

My.02cents

Sean

Sean,

Have you read the whole thread? It's a relatively simple process. The burden of proof of 500 manufactured lies with the manufacturer. USPSA doesn't involve the customers in the process. In the case of a 6" sight tracker, the barrel is the only component not yet approved.

The 500 rule is there to prevent prototypes. If a single gunbuilder (i.e. not a corporation like STI/SV/Para) had some revolutionary idea he needs to produce 500 of that component in order for it to not be a prototype. Making 500 barrels is not a trivial process and represents a significant amount of cash hanging out there, so an individual gunsmith won't be taking on that kind of risky investment. It's sort of a catch 22: Customers won't buy them unless they're legal, but they can't be legal until they're built. That's what we count on to be sure a competitor doesn't walk up to the line with a prototype gun in Limited div. Now that STI has their custom shop going with 6" sight trackers being built, I expect it won't be much longer. That being said, I don't think the gun will have any advantages and likely won't cause a huge shift in gun design.

Question for Mike C. or Wil Schuemann: The Tribrid rib is shorter than the Hybrid rib. The 5" Hybrid is approved for Limited, but what about a 5" Tribrid? Does each need to be made in quantities of 500 and be individually approved? Is this part of the problem with the 6" version? Are there some Hybrids and some Tribrids out there, or are all 6" sight tracker barrels of the same ilk?

[G-ManBart]

Making 500 barrels is not a trivial process and represents a significant amount of cash hanging out there, so an individual gunsmith won't be taking on that kind of risky investment.

Very true and probably more so than most of us realize. I once asked Mike what a typical day's production averaged and was really suprised to find it was nowhere near as many as I would have guessed. R,

[Sean Gaines]

I guess let me explain again, for splashdown!

If I take a 6" bull barrel and cut a dovetail and place a front sight on the end of the barrel, cut a little slit on the top of the slide, where the front sight can protrude above the slide, and is your front sight, why is that illegal?

slide lighning is ok

making cuts on your barrel is ok

There is nothing in the rule book to says you cant do that, so the 500 rule wouldn't even apply to that setup mentioned above. who needs a long rib on the barrell? you can have bull at the front of the barrel, with your sight attached to the barrel with a taper down towards the barrel hood, to reduce weight.

[splashdown]

Sean,

I'm sorry I only addressed part of your post where you suggest: 1) Approval of 5" barrels might automatically get the 6" version approved; 2) The reason for 5" sight tracker approval has something to do with the name Voigt; 3) Manufacturers records are inaccurate so USPSA must go to the customers...etc.

I honestly don't know about your idea of a 5" slide with a 6" barrel. I have seen similar designs for IPSC Standard division, possibly a Jorge Ballesteros gun. On paper it seems ok, we have 5" slides and 6" bull barrels already approved, but I believe I've read here somewhere that this configuration is not legal. I am interested in getting the answer, but I believe it's been addressed somewhere years ago. I would search, but cannot at this hour.

[Sean Gaines]

I guess let me explain again, for splashdown!

If I take a 6" bull barrel and cut a dovetail and place a front sight on the end of the barrel, cut a little slit on the top of the slide, where the front sight can protrude above the slide, and is your front sight, why is that illegal?

slide lighning is ok

making cuts on your barrel is ok

There is nothing in the rule book to says you cant do that, so the 500 rule wouldn't even apply to that setup mentioned above. who needs a long rib on the barrell? you can have bull at the front of the barrel, with your sight attached to the barrel with a taper down towards the barrel hood, to reduce weight.

I am saying a 6" bull barrel with a 6" slide, with a slit on the end of the slide where the sight would typically go. put a sight on the barrel where upon the gun closing the sight would go into the slit of the slide, and stick up on the slide, and act as a sight. That shouldn't break any of the rules and the 500 rule shouldn't apply. thats is what I am saying. It would not have a rib like the schueman, its just a bull barrel with a cut for sight on the barrel, the sight would go into the notch on the slide.

As for records, how are they keeping track? they can go to a manufacturer, sometimes they don't even know how many they make. They would have to go through years of books to find out that kind of information. Thats why its a silly rule

[Fireant]

Yep, I agree with Sean here. How would you go about getting that provision removed? Start with your Area Director? I think Limited should be like open in that new innovations should be allowed as long as they do not have comps, ports, optics or mags longer than 140mm.

[want2race]

That would be one tall sight. I agree though that Limited should not have the restrictions that it currently has. No comps, optics, and a 140mm mag.

[Sean Gaines]

That would be one tall sight. I agree though that Limited should not have the restrictions that it currently has. No comps, optics, and a 140mm mag.

yeah!

once the gun is closed wouldn't look odd, my point is that you can do all that and the 500 rule shouldn't apply, with that said in mind why not just approve a 6'' sightracker

yes I agree, as long as no optic, 140mag, comps, etc. you should be able to everything else.

[JThompson]

That would be one tall sight. I agree though that Limited should not have the restrictions that it currently has. No comps, optics, and a 140mm mag.

I agree... if you like a bunch of rules go with production.

Limited should keep the rules to a minimum, we don't need that division micro managed.

JT

[splashdown]

what if I had a 6" bull barrel put on a 5 in slide and attached a dovetail on the bull barrel and put a sight on it.

My.02cents

Sean

I didn't exactly mis-quote you, but I didn't catch all of your various ideas either. Sorry about that.

I don't really care either way. I just want to know the rules as they are today so that I can enforce them fairly. I personally think the 6" sight tracker should be legal today if enough barrels have been made. I assume there are enough barrels out there if Mike Calloway is already talking with USPSA/NROI about it. I don't understand what the hold up is or how the process works at the upper echelons of the organization. Still, I would just stick with what I've got even if they were legal.