Limited 6" SightTracker?

[Radical Precision Designs]

Venry,

Here is your up-hill battle: http://www.uspsa.org/rules/nroi_rulings.ph...dit&indx=10

I don't believe that ruling jives with the wording of the rule book. But, my opinion doesn't get you too far. The (current, red) rule book clearly reads "or components". The ruling goes the other way. For example, by the ruling, even SV couldn't put their 5in sight tracker top end on a 1911 frame for Limited-10.

Thanks, Flex.

Recently I received a copy of the new "blue book" with the Rules for 2008. In page #72 Appendix D2 - Limited Division, under item #19 > see Special Conditions. Under Special Conditions: First "Condition" reference is; "Any complete handgun or components with a minimum production of 500 units by a factory and available to the general public. "

While it is true that as an "individual" custom gunsmith, if I were to make a "private-limited access" edition of a component it would not be expected to qualify for inclusion under this "reading" of the rule ... the same would definetely be the exercising of the rule when the actual maker of that component initially approved and included was to (re)certify a similar item. Those barrels as included by the "complete guns" submitted by SVI/Infinity were made by its "unequivocal" manufacturer: Schuemann Barrels.

Under the Second "Condition", in the same page, next paragraph it includes the reference to the "Complete Gun" as submitted by SVI/Infinity.

Since nobody is looking to extremely alter the already approved "vehicle" of the submitted Sight Tracker in 5" mode, it would not be a stretch. It is my understanding that Mike C. ("browndog") inquired directly of John Amidon in the past as for the possibility of including a 9mm version of the barrel into the Sight Tracker "family", and John Amidon stated that if "500 of those barrels were certified by a "major manufacturer" that it would be allowed.

Now, I see that "browndog" is "lurking" about. Maybe he can shed some light on this ????

edited to correct spelling.

Edited December 5, 2007 by Radical Precision Designs

[Flexmoney]

That is the same wording, with the same people making the call, as the red book.

And, we pointed out the same arguement in the past. (there are probably a few threads on this specific "or components" issue)

Good luck. I hope it gets through. I think the wording supports the possibility...but, I thought that before, too.

[Radical Precision Designs]

That is the same wording, with the same people making the call, as the red book.

And, we pointed out the same arguement in the past. (there are probably a few threads on this specific "or components" issue)

Good luck. I hope it gets through. I think the wording supports the possibility...but, I thought that before, too.

Yes, Flex. I believe we speak the same language. And, language IS the key here.

Why would there be specific "wording", as COMPONENTS are/is implied, unles there was meant to be a components "issue" as an isolated item from that of a COMPLETE gun ??? The picture as a whole IMO, is meant to allow "aftermarket" major providers of parts to become a player in this Sport. It does allow for progress and ingenuity to go forth. That is why we are in the center of what we have on hand now that did not exist when the Sport began. Of course following the channels as prescribed, with the proper credentials is a must. I believe the course as we are involved in is promising, even though the initial seed did not come from a "super-power" of the Industry. So far as it is supported and certified by such, it should go forth. ( I think ???? )

The next step, after Schuemann Barrel's certification Letter of accomplishment will be to request instatement as per "written language". Of course, personally lacking the politcal "clout", we must rely on common sense prevailing. Maybe it is not as "half empty" as all that. ?? Maybe it is "half full" ?? Or maybe it is really full, and nobody has checked on it yet to verify/certify ??

One step at a time.

[Godzilla]

Hi this is Mike Calloway from Schuemann Barrels, Venry asked me to give some input on this thread so here it is: (I will post the weights of all the barrels if anyone is interested)

When a Hybrid or ribbed barrel is installed in a gun, the same amount of weight added to the barrel by the rib is removed from the slide by machining a slot into the slide that the rib fits into. We believe that this patented barrel design allows for a flatter gun with quicker following shots for these reasons:

1. Weight Distribution - The ribbed barrel allow for a flatter shooting gun since the additional weight of the forward end of the barrel, which does not move aft with the slide, helps reduce muzzle rise. Some people claim that a ribbed barrel makes the gun nose heavy, but, as noted above, the nose of the gun is not heavier when a ribbed barrel is installed. The weight of the nose of the gun is unchanged by a ribbed barrel. However, because of the way inertia and momentum is distributed between the slide and barrel during cycling, both muzzle rise and the sighting disturbance when the slide goes back into battery is reduced when using a ribbed barrel. That, is the primary advantage of using a ribbed barrel.

2. Unmoving Front Sight - The front sight is machined into the barrel and does not move with the slide. Any time an object moves in and out of your focus your eye and brain needs time to adjust and communicate. This happens very quickly but time does matter in a tactical situation. Installing a ribbed barrel gives your brain more time to concentrate on target acquisition between shots.

3. Slide Lightening – The slide is lighter when a ribbed barrel is installed because of the slot machined in the slide to make room for the rib, as mentioned above. The resulting lighter slide allows the slide to cycle faster thus giving you the possibility of a faster shot to shot time.

4. The heavier ribbed barrel and lighter slide does not affect total recoil. Total recoil is primarily determined by power factor, and to a tiny extent by the propellant gas exiting the muzzle after the bullet leaves the bore. However, the reduced muzzle flip and reduced sight disturbance when the slide goes back into battery with a ribbed barrel is perceived as reduced recoil by the brain.

5. Obviously, removing too much weight from the slide will ultimately reduce reliability, but the lightening of the slide to accommodate a ribbed barrel has not been found to cause a noticeable reduction of reliability.

6. Rumors have circulated that the slot in the slide machined for the rib results in cracked slides. To our knowledge not a single slide has cracked after twenty years of Hybridized guns. The area in the slide between the forward end of the ejection port and the back of the slot for the ribbed barrel is obviously not highly stressed.

Like with all things associated with this sport, practice is where the gravel hits the road. With practice, the combination of these advantages should give the shooter a clear edge on the competition. I didn’t notice how much better I shot my Hybrid gun until I loaned it to friend to try out and shot my bull barrel configuration in the match. (I kept thinking, “where is my front sight”? As my eyes go a little bit with age it is a big advantage  ) I don’t know about you but I need every advantage that I can get! But with everything else in this world, it really comes down to what you are accustoming to using. My grandma sent letters out when she could and never tried computers or email, some times it takes a leap of faith on new technology.

Of course this is new technology to the 1911 based on its longevity. Until Wil patented the Ribbed Barrels and the AET Technology the 1911 barrel design remained unchanged for close to 100 years.

Have we sold over 500 ribbed barrels in 38, 40 and 45? Yes, to the 38 and 40 but no to the 45 caliber. The Hybrid barrel is very popular among USPSA shooters and especially popular outside the US. Not so much in the 45 caliber, but the 45 isn’t used much in limited class, due to the magazine capacity advantage of the 40 S&W.

As far as the ruling for USPSA goes, I guess it is open to your own interpretation. I won’t give mine but I will give out a few thoughts. I believe that a barrel is a component and under the rules is allowed to be replaced or upgraded. There is no gun weight change, and no change in external dimensions, when a ribbed barrel is installed. If every component replaced or added to a gun needed approval then, by the strictest interpretation of this rule, almost all the parts in most every gun in each match would be illegal. Think of every component in your gun; Mag wells, extractor, ejectors, triggers, trigger inserts, hammers, sights, grips, grip tape, main spring housing, guide rods, where is the line drawn?

I hope this helps but if it doesn’t please email Venry directly  .

USPSA makes all rulings on these issues and it is what they say that counts. Hopefully after 17 years our barrels can break out of the prototype category!

Thanks,

Mike Calloway

Schuemann Barrels

[Radical Precision Designs]

Thank You Mike-

Your input is greatly appreciated. Your support in this endeavour to legitimize the 6" Sight Tracker variation is indeed crucial.

Yesterday I had a heart to heart talk with Brandon at SVI/Infinity. Brandon related that both himself and Sandy are indeed in favor of this course of action too. SVI/Infinity can not at this time verify the manufacture of 500 completed guns in the 6" variation, but can verify that the gun as a whole has been and is available for sale and use to the public, and not an experimental item.

Among some of the people with "clout" the consensus seems to be that it is a matter of "whim" whether it gets approved or not by USPSA headdquarters, regardless of what the Rule Book says, or its interpretation. I am not that pesimistic in my outlook of the subject, but it is not up to me. I can only bring the parties together and hopefully we will get a favorable resolution out of it that will jive with the written word.

So far we have in our side both the component manufacturer ( Thank you Mike and Wil !!) and the complete gun manufacturer (Thank you Brandon and Sandy !!). I suppose that now we will need some "big wig" to champion the "bill" into a USPSA agenda discussion. Any volunteers among our readers ??? We know you ARE out there "lurking". Now is your turn to do so something that is popular for the good of ALL ... ????

[Radical Precision Designs]

Time for an update:

I have been working at gathering some more info on this subject, and getting it going ...

There are more 6" Sight Trackers presently at use in USPSA matches than meets the eye. (Although technically not legal !!!) Most are being used in Club matches or lowel level sanctioned matches. I even saw one recently being used at the U.S. Steel Shoot Championship as a Limited gun. (But I ain't naming no names )

I just ordered some more 6" Sight Tracker barrels from Schuemann ... and my own little/long gem is about ready to make its debut.

Very soon, the paperwork to petition the 6" Sight Tracker version will be submitted to Amidon at USPSA... and the prospects look good with the present supporting data with it. It seems that the expected reception for this submission is not that critical at all, considering the on going use of 6" Limited guns.

[Kingman]

Nice news. I am going to post a review of shooting the 5" I have some.

[jasmap]

Time for an update:

I have been working at gathering some more info on this subject, and getting it going ...

There are more 6" Sight Trackers presently at use in USPSA matches than meets the eye. (Although technically not legal !!!) Most are being used in Club matches or lowel level sanctioned matches. I even saw one recently being used at the U.S. Steel Shoot Championship as a Limited gun. (But I ain't naming no names )

I just ordered some more 6" Sight Tracker barrels from Schuemann ... and my own little/long gem is about ready to make its debut.

Very soon, the paperwork to petition the 6" Sight Tracker version will be submitted to Amidon at USPSA... and the prospects look good with the present supporting data with it. It seems that the expected reception for this submission is not that critical at all, considering the on going use of 6" Limited guns.

Thanks for the update Venry. I guess I'm not crazy for starting this thread after all.

[jasmap]

Time for an update:

I have been working at gathering some more info on this subject, and getting it going ...

There are more 6" Sight Trackers presently at use in USPSA matches than meets the eye. (Although technically not legal !!!) Most are being used in Club matches or lowel level sanctioned matches. I even saw one recently being used at the U.S. Steel Shoot Championship as a Limited gun. (But I ain't naming no names )

I just ordered some more 6" Sight Tracker barrels from Schuemann ... and my own little/long gem is about ready to make its debut.

Very soon, the paperwork to petition the 6" Sight Tracker version will be submitted to Amidon at USPSA... and the prospects look good with the present supporting data with it. It seems that the expected reception for this submission is not that critical at all, considering the on going use of 6" Limited guns.

Any new news Venry? Also, how about an update on the 6" SightTracker you may be building.

[want2race]

To repeat the above post (and to subcribe), any new news? I'm buying a 6 inch barrel. Ribbed or not?

If a 5inch sight tracker is leagal, why wouldn't a 6 inch be legal? Is it because of the number that has been produced by SVI?

Edited: Ok, I read the "other thread (drift)" regarding this as well. I understand the "officially unofficial" answer now.

Edited May 13, 2008 by want2race

[Radical Precision Designs]

There has been a lot of work done on this subject especially by Mike Callaway at Schuemann Barrels.

Mountains have been moved. I haven't kept much with it lately, but Mike has done a lot. (I read in other thread something about being pretty much already there, approved. Please correct me on this!! )

Today I was at the 2009 Shot Show in Orlando, Fla. While there I meandered towards the STI booth, see what was new and exciting. Well plenty. Russell and Dave Skinner were their usual bent over-board with info and having fun with it. They showed me their new aluminum 2011 grip. (They promised it will be ready in about 90 days, and I'm going to pester them about it ... not teasing allowed, you hear ???)

Now what they showed me next is really great. In coordination with Schuemann barrels they are offering their own version of the Sight-Tracker in both 5 inches and in 6 INCHES. Yes, that is correct: a STI factory built 6" "ribbed/hybrid barrel (no holes) made by Schuemann and incidentally called the "Infinete" Both in 5" and 6". It is priced nicely too.

So between factory offerings and Custom builds (don't forget ME on that ) there are plenty of choices to pick from. Get your orders in !!!!!!!

Note: Somehow I could not upload the picture of the gun from STI from Photobucket. (????)

[jasmap]

There has been a lot of work done on this subject especially by Mike Callaway at Schuemann Barrels.

Mountains have been moved. I haven't kept much with it lately, but Mike has done a lot. (I read in other thread something about being pretty much already there, approved. Please correct me on this!! )

Today I was at the 2009 Shot Show in Orlando, Fla. While there I meandered towards the STI booth, see what was new and exciting. Well plenty. Russell and Dave Skinner were their usual bent over-board with info and having fun with it. They showed me their new aluminum 2011 grip. (They promised it will be ready in about 90 days, and I'm going to pester them about it ... not teasing allowed, you hear ???)

Now what they showed me next is really great. In coordination with Schuemann barrels they are offering their own version of the Sight-Tracker in both 5 inches and in 6 INCHES. Yes, that is correct: a STI factory built 6" "ribbed/hybrid barrel (no holes) made by Schuemann and incidentally called the "Infinete" Both in 5" and 6". It is priced nicely too.

So between factory offerings and Custom builds (don't forget ME on that ) there are plenty of choices to pick from. Get your orders in !!!!!!!

Note: Somehow I could not upload the picture of the gun from STI from Photobucket. (????)

That is fantastic news Venry. Thanks for the update. I had spoken to Mike myself so I knew he was working on it.

I just checked STI's website and they already have it listed with a photo.

Edited January 18, 2009 by jasmap

[G-ManBart]

There has been a lot of work done on this subject especially by Mike Callaway at Schuemann Barrels.

Mountains have been moved. I haven't kept much with it lately, but Mike has done a lot. (I read in other thread something about being pretty much already there, approved. Please correct me on this!! )

Today I was at the 2009 Shot Show in Orlando, Fla. While there I meandered towards the STI booth, see what was new and exciting. Well plenty. Russell and Dave Skinner were their usual bent over-board with info and having fun with it. They showed me their new aluminum 2011 grip. (They promised it will be ready in about 90 days, and I'm going to pester them about it ... not teasing allowed, you hear ???)

Now what they showed me next is really great. In coordination with Schuemann barrels they are offering their own version of the Sight-Tracker in both 5 inches and in 6 INCHES. Yes, that is correct: a STI factory built 6" "ribbed/hybrid barrel (no holes) made by Schuemann and incidentally called the "Infinete" Both in 5" and 6". It is priced nicely too.

So between factory offerings and Custom builds (don't forget ME on that ) there are plenty of choices to pick from. Get your orders in !!!!!!!

Note: Somehow I could not upload the picture of the gun from STI from Photobucket. (????)

That is fantastic news Venry. Thanks for the update. I had spoken to Mike myself so I knew he was working on it.

I just checked STI's website and they already have it listed with a photo.

Yeah, I was there when Mike was talking to John Amidon about it at the Nationals and it sounded very promising. I also talked to Mike on the phone after he'd talked with Dave about the factory STI guns and worked out the basics of the deal...very cool stuff!

Mike shot a 6" sight tracker style gun in 9mm at the Nationals and it was a very nice combo....he shot it in Open (obviously) as he wanted to put some miles on it. I think that combo would be an amazing setup for steel!

[jasmap]

There has been a lot of work done on this subject especially by Mike Callaway at Schuemann Barrels.

Mountains have been moved. I haven't kept much with it lately, but Mike has done a lot. (I read in other thread something about being pretty much already there, approved. Please correct me on this!! )

Today I was at the 2009 Shot Show in Orlando, Fla. While there I meandered towards the STI booth, see what was new and exciting. Well plenty. Russell and Dave Skinner were their usual bent over-board with info and having fun with it. They showed me their new aluminum 2011 grip. (They promised it will be ready in about 90 days, and I'm going to pester them about it ... not teasing allowed, you hear ???)

Now what they showed me next is really great. In coordination with Schuemann barrels they are offering their own version of the Sight-Tracker in both 5 inches and in 6 INCHES. Yes, that is correct: a STI factory built 6" "ribbed/hybrid barrel (no holes) made by Schuemann and incidentally called the "Infinete" Both in 5" and 6". It is priced nicely too.

So between factory offerings and Custom builds (don't forget ME on that ) there are plenty of choices to pick from. Get your orders in !!!!!!!

Note: Somehow I could not upload the picture of the gun from STI from Photobucket. (????)

That is fantastic news Venry. Thanks for the update. I had spoken to Mike myself so I knew he was working on it.

I just checked STI's website and they already have it listed with a photo.

Yeah, I was there when Mike was talking to John Amidon about it at the Nationals and it sounded very promising. I also talked to Mike on the phone after he'd talked with Dave about the factory STI guns and worked out the basics of the deal...very cool stuff!

Mike shot a 6" sight tracker style gun in 9mm at the Nationals and it was a very nice combo....he shot it in Open (obviously) as he wanted to put some miles on it. I think that combo would be an amazing setup for steel!

That was a badass gun. I spent alot of time staring at it and wishing I could own it.

[G-ManBart]

That was a badass gun. I spent alot of time staring at it and wishing I could own it.

Hey, all it takes is a call to Derek, selling your first born and waiting a few months

[Godzilla]

That was a badass gun. I spent alot of time staring at it and wishing I could own it.

Hey, all it takes is a call to Derek, selling your first born and waiting a few months

Actually Bartman it was my second born and 19 months

Just kidding Derek. Derek and I are still at the SHOT and I had better sleep with one eye open now!

It is a seriously cool gun balanced so well that if you close your eyes you can't tell which hand has the 5" hybrid or the 6" tribrid gun in it. As far as the cost is concerned, it's just a matter of how many extra cuts you want, (not need) and having a gun that is 100% reliable. I looked at some of the photos from the nationals and the gun didn't move during the entire cycle. Just wish that I could have practiced prior to the match, I picked the gun off the table and shot it after sighting it in with Bartman. It was totally perfect right off the table.

Here is the 6" Tribrid Barrel with a 5" long dust cover!

Here is pretty much the same Millennium Custom gun with a 6" bull barrel with out the rib.

The 6" Tribrid or "INFINTE" as named by STI is legal for steel challenge matches and we are working on the USPSA's ruling but no time frame is available.

STI has opened their custom shop!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The gun you order must be with STI parts and any Schuemann Barrel, see www.stiguns.com for the complete set of details but that is pretty close to being it.

Come out and shoot the US National Steel Championship in Titusville, FL on March 26-29th. www.ussteelshoot.com

Mike

Edited January 18, 2009 by browndog

[pmd]

...The 6" Tribrid or "INFINTE" as named by STI is legal for steel challenge matches and we are working on the USPSA's ruling but no time frame is available.

STI has opened their custom shop!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The gun you order must be with STI parts and any Schuemann Barrel, see www.stiguns.com for the complete set of details but that is pretty close to being it.

Come out and shoot the US National Steel Championship in Titusville, FL on March 26-29th. www.ussteelshoot.com

Mike

Mike,

Thanks for the info!

See you in March.

Paul

[dragon cat]

Hi! I used to be nu2ipsc here a couple of years ago, but I had some difficulty logging in and retrieving my password. I'm an ex wife of a former member and he had an idea to build a 6" .40 hybrid barrel top end for limited, that he could swap to a tribrid barrel in 9mm or .38 super for open division with the built in compensator holes or chambers. Obviously, the rear sight would have to be removed to either use a DR style slide mounted or "canted" C-more red dot, 2 sets of magazines, and possible breachface change if that style slide is the only way to strike .38 vs .40. I'm not a gunsmith, but I think the calibers are very close in diameter and if a .40 breachface is tuned properly I assume it would strike a .38 too. If I'm mistaken please advise! Also, could an extractor be tuned to extract both calibers or do I need to change and tune them every time I change over calibers? This was just an idea to get 2 guns in 1, and it made a lot of sense to me.

Does anyone have a gun like this? Is it practical? Does anyone recommend a quality gun builder that may be interested? I really like the gun pictured in the post above by Derek? Derek who? Can he help answer my questions or build me a similar gun? If the cost is similar to my limcat open gun, and the time frame isn't 6+ months I would like to get something built very soon. I don't have my ex to help with this stuff anymore. I'll have to trust you guys to point me in the right direction!

[HSMITH]

DC, that is Derek Janowitcz, spelling on the last name is almost certainly wrong but phonetically OK. He is Millenium Custom, http://www.mcguns.com/

[waktasz]

The barrel in my 6" gun is toast and needs to be replaced. I'd love to put a sight tracker type barrel in, does anyone have any further details about pending legality for Limited?

[dragon cat]

DC, that is Derek Janowitcz, spelling on the last name is almost certainly wrong but phonetically OK. He is Millenium Custom, http://www.mcguns.com/

HSMITH, I think I have some SV magazines you made for my ex that say money shots on them. What do you think of brians idea to have 2 guns in one the way I suggested above? I thought it was a very cool idea, and I loved his sight tracker too. I just don't want to pay the premium SV wants for the same gun that looks just like everybody elses sight tracker that comes out of SV. I love unique looking guns that have a personality. SV & STI have their style and they are beautiful! Just not as custom as my limcat, or the gun above. I'm on a hunt for function, reliability and individual beauty that I think only a few gunsmiths can accomplish. Don't you build guns too? I thought Brian always wanted a real purdy 6" gun you built, but I might have you mixed up with one of many "smiths" when talking about getting guns built. If you do build guns, Where can I see your work, and would you be interested in building this gun? Anything about the idea you don't agree with?

[HSMITH]

DC, I did make those mags. Tell Brian hi for me if you hear from him.

I am not a fan of 2-in-1 guns, they typically give up at least a little to a single purpose built gun and the extra expense involved is usually not a heck of a lot less than building 2 purpose built guns. I think the best way is to add a little more cash and build two guns.

Brian did talk to me about a 6" but the lead times were long then and are a lot longer now. There are pictures here in the gallery, there is a LONG 6" thread that has them.

[dragon cat]

DC, I did make those mags. Tell Brian hi for me if you hear from him.

I am not a fan of 2-in-1 guns, they typically give up at least a little to a single purpose built gun and the extra expense involved is usually not a heck of a lot less than building 2 purpose built guns. I think the best way is to add a little more cash and build two guns.

Brian did talk to me about a 6" but the lead times were long then and are a lot longer now. There are pictures here in the gallery, there is a LONG 6" thread that has them.

Thank you for your honesty instead of trying to make few extra bucks on a girl. I kind of feel like a woman at as car repair shop when it comes to these guns. I would say hello for you but then he'll know I'm here and I don't think he'd like to hear that I'm hanging out here with his old buddies, knowing his alimony checks are going towards a new gun for me. I will pm you his contact info.

[HSMITH]

LOL, fair enough.

[FUNGUNNER]

The barrel in my 6" gun is toast and needs to be replaced. I'd love to put a sight tracker type barrel in, does anyone have any further details about pending legality for Limited?

I received an e-mail from John Amidon(USPSA) earlier this week and it does not sound like the 6" sight tracker will be approved any time soon. Hopefully with all the intrest and some being built it will happen sooner or later. With this info, I have put my 6" sight tracker build on the back burner. Going to build a 5" to hold me over.