RiggerJJ Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 THE RESULT ARE NOW UP ON OUR WEBSITE! www.rm3g.com jj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted September 18, 2008 Author Share Posted September 18, 2008 Okay, so I'm jumping threads, but Kelly beat me to the punch. I'll leave the percentages for Kurt, and just get straight to the question I want to get a feel for. Do you people in the non-tac-scope classes want (after the top shooter in each class gets their prize) to do one prize table with order of finish? Check out www.rm3g.com. We've posted overall scores as well as by class, so you can check out how you did and compare. Right now, RM3G 2009 (August 6-8) is planning on 5 separate tables again. Is that the preferred plan? No, having more than one 100% on a stage is not an option. It would just be overall across the board. Many of you non-tac-scope people may notice your percentage going down in overall because of "you know who." In my opinion, more than one 100% falsely inflates the smaller division scores in an overall report. And that's that, because I'm the MD. I hear lots of mentions about overall prize table distribution and Patrick Kelly has been asking about that for some time. So many pooh-poohed him! Yet, maybe he's a man ahead of his time. Seriously, is one table (after the very top) a good idea? It would sure make my life easier, though the table would be very long! Benellichick wants to know! Thanks for thinking about it seriously! Denise P.S. JJ says Open shooters want their own dang prize table!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdtravers Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 If you haven't been to JP's Rocky Mountain 3-Gun, this will give you an idea how much fun we have, and how good the army team is!! We still have a few slots yet, though we're picking up sponsors for slots every day! Thanks to all of them! I'll post the list of generous, amzing sponsors a little closer to the match! Check our website for all those generous sponsors! This year should be a great time! This is the first time I have seen this video. (RM3G AMU video) Wow!! Had no idea what I was missing. Have spent too many years down in Florida and up and down the east coast shooting. Most of us from down south don't generally do well at these matches because there aren't very many ranges that go out past 100 yards down in Florida that you can actually practice/shoot and move on. I am next to Fort Polk, LA now and have access to all the training facilities I could ever ask for. Won't miss another one!!!! Also, we don't have mountains in Florida either, just sand dunes. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VNGunfighter Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 (edited) The creation of prize tables 4 and 5 was a mistake. In my opinion, Tac Iron and Tac Scope should have been rolled into one as well as HMI and HMS- Thus making 3 prize tables and giving Deinse what she is looking for-LESS WORK The Idea of prizes in bags, not a big fan of-Reason- More shopping and groping-Just let the shooters see what the prizes are and let them know of what the sponsors donated-It just looked a ocean of yellow bags. Sure one big GIANT table would be awesome too see, but where would you put the "specific donations" for classes and such?-Talk about feeding fredzy-The 1st Open guy gets to fight over the prize with 2 Tac Scope or whatever- If anything go with Match points in each class regardless of finish in the class you shot in, Just lump them all together, because thats what you when you made a giant prize table. We all know that the most expensive items are picked up first regardless of personal usage in the future or not. Just my 6 cents-J Edited September 18, 2008 by VNGunfighter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 Denise one of the things I would see about what I think would be straight up shooting, is that if you are not going to recognize different divisions, just the hi shooter in each class, then why have different classes. the only way I can see each class being recognized is by having more than one 100% on each stage. taking what you currently have, each different class, and then combining the overall match results for the sake of one prize table would make it viable, in that way the top shooters would still be at the top and receive ample reward for their performance. otherwise a HM iron shooter would be competing against an open shooter, with the HM shooter being restricted in the equipment they can use but both would be competing for the same result. my opinion is that that would be very unfair. But what has generated most if not all of the problem is the preponderance of different and offshoot classes. Now there are definetly classes that are so similar in equipment that they could be combined, open and Tac optic, with some allowances tac optic and tac iron, or with the same allowances HM iron and HM optic. or you could do what IPSC does and run open, and standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 Do you people in the non-tac-scope classes want (after the top shooter in each class gets their prize) to do one prize table with order of finish? I would say yes to the above, but I do NOT agree with the following: No, having more than one 100% on a stage is not an option. It would just be overall across the board. Many of you non-tac-scope people may notice your percentage going down in overall because of "you know who." In my opinion, more than one 100% falsely inflates the smaller division scores in an overall report... I do not agree that awarding 100% stage scores in each division necessarily inflates the scores of the smaller divisions, so long as at least two "top grade" competitors enter each division. For example, why shouldn't the Tac Iron guys be normalized to whomever wins between Robbie, Kurt and Bruce ? To benchmark them against the top Open shooter is unfair. As I recall, the main reason matches went away from the single prize table model was that people bitched about how HM shooters scores were inflated. Now that HM has some real top-flight competitors, I don't see this as an issue. Come on Denise, give me a reason to go back to irons... I suck with optics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted September 18, 2008 Author Share Posted September 18, 2008 I'll agree that 1 - 100% per stage doesn't necessarily inflate the smaller divisions, but... I've been shooting against Daniel Horner for some time now...and while I love seeing him at the matches, my percentages get pretty darn tired of being tanked. My numbers were 321 out of 796 in Tac-Scope. That's a whopping 40% There were a couple Open competitors who had 344 and 324 in Open points out of 737. That's 47% and 44% respectively. When the numbers were thrown together with just 1-100% per stage, I only got 307 but it was out of 756, which was still 40%, but my Open competitors only ended up with 302(40%) and 292(38%), and I ended up beating them in heads up competition! If the straight stage points had been combined for overall, I would have been beaten by people I had better raw scores than. This is not as isolated incident. It happens more than you'd imagine, especially with Dinglefritz(DH) in the mix! After looking at all the results, especially for He-Man Iron, overall prize table doesn't seem fair. SO...I'm pretty sure it's back to 5 prize tables! Thanks for your input! Oh well! Don't forget, Rocky Mountain 3-Gun is a month earlier. It's August 6-8, 2009. Juniors, Teachers, Dove Hunters...put us on your schedule!!! Denise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 Denise how about back to 3 prize tables and just 2 100% stage winners for rifle stages for irons and optics, for both HM and Tac, combine them at the end of the match. Like it was done in years past, i think the person that bitched the most about that happening doesn't really play anymore, or at least play well with others . its like golf smaller numbers are better, . Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted September 18, 2008 Author Share Posted September 18, 2008 I'd feel better about that if there were stages with just rifle. The mixed stages just don't work for me. Stage 1 in 2007 is a prime example. It was really a pistol stage, but with the 2 100%'s, someone in TI would have gotten the same number of points for a 20 second slower time as the TS guy! When the pistol, and shotgun are the same, and we have so many rifle mixed stages, I just don't like it! This year, we had two three gun stages and one rifle,pistol. So even if we just did rifle stages...it still doesn't seem fair to me! I sure wish there was an answer that would make everyone happy! Like that's ever going to happen! Thanks for all your help and suggestions! Denise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el pres Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 (edited) Moved http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...=71154&st=0 Edited September 19, 2008 by DIRTY CHAMBER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzzworm Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 I like the way the prizes were done at RM3G this year. A table for each division that is scored on it's own. If I shoot HM-O, then I think I should walk the prize table set out based on entries into my division. Based on the % of prizes/$$$ brought into the match by shooters in MY division. My division match score is not mixed up with open/tac-o/.22rf/single shot/muzzle loader/girlyman division, so why should I walk a table that is mixed up with it. I'm not going to cry because someone that shot in a division that has seven times as many shooters in it, brings home a better prize than I got from the table I walked. I decide that before I choose which division to enter. (In USPSA I shot Revo for quite some time, so I guess I'm used to it ) There is no one answer that everyone will agree on, and the prize table lay out will not affect which division I enjoy shooting in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 (edited) If the straight stage points had been combined for overall, I would have been beaten by people I had better raw scores than.This is not as isolated incident. I don't like match points for this reason, I like total time (just adding all the stages + penalties). Total time is also the only way to objectively compare between divisions. When doing so we see that people with more advanced equipment are always beaten by people of higher skill. I do think the way the prizes were distributed this year was entirely fair. Divisions with less competitors should not get as many high value prizes, unless sponsors request it go to specific divisions. Edited September 18, 2008 by SinistralRifleman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retzkek Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 (edited) Okay, I might just be beating a dead horse here, but I'm going to add some hopefully objective analysis to the one-prize-table discussion. WARNING! STATISTICS AHEAD! I grabbed the overall rankings off the web site, and broke them into quintiles (top 20%, second 20%, etc.). I then looked at the representation of each class within each quintile, compared to the overall representation of each class in the match (in other words, how many open shooters finished in the top quintile versus how many open shooters were in the match, etc.). My postulate is such: if the representation of each class within each quintile is approximately the same as the representation of that class in the match, then a single prize table would be fair to all shooters. Each vertical bar represents a quintile, with the rightmost bar being the match overall. The colors in each bar show what percentage of that quintile is from each class. The numbers at the bottom give the places that fall within each quintile. Overall, this shows a pretty even distribution of the classes among the quintiles. Tac Irons is actually over-represented in the top quintile. Unsurprisingly, Open is as well. The only class that isn't well represented near the top is HM Irons, and as much as it pains me to say it, this might just be due to the skills of the shooters (I know I dragged the class down a bit ). Basically, what I'm saying is that the numbers seem to indicate that a single prize table WOULD be fair. (Or maybe not... see addendum) Out of curiosity, I also did the same analysis with Open excluded: In the thread on prize table allotment, I theorized that a well-designed match could somewhat equalize the classes (e.g. a scope gives an advantage on the long-range targets, but is likely slower up close, etc.). Based on my experience and the numbers above, I'd say that RM3G is a prime example of this! Addendum: Okay, I'm gonna have to eat some of my words. I performed the same analysis using just the results from stage 8, which was probably the least class-dependent of the stages. It was shotgun/pistol, removing the scope/irons difference, and it was low round count so magazine capacity had little effect. In other words, it was almost totally skill that determined how well one did on the stage. This stage really was quite equal among the classes. First off, let me apologize to my fellow HM Iron shooters, you are not all a bunch of slouches! The Tac Irons guys really deserve some credit, with over half the class placing in the top quintile. Given that both Irons classes did better here than in the overall, I can only conclude that the scope/iron difference needs to be taken into account in the end. I'll leave all this here on the off chance that someone else finds it interesting. Edited September 20, 2008 by retzkek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el pres Posted September 21, 2008 Share Posted September 21, 2008 WARNING! STATISTICS AHEAD! Ok, this is really hurting my head !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el pres Posted September 21, 2008 Share Posted September 21, 2008 (edited) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaPCMW9KMbU Ok, first attempt at making a movie ??? Me and my buddy at RM3G 2008, it's kind of long but I like it !! What do you think ?? Edited September 21, 2008 by DIRTY CHAMBER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted September 21, 2008 Share Posted September 21, 2008 Statistics guy, you lost me at Quintile!!!!! Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick S Posted September 21, 2008 Share Posted September 21, 2008 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaPCMW9KMbU Ok, first attempt at making a movie ??? Me and my buddy at RM3G 2008, it's kind of long but I like it !! What do you think ?? Cool video. Do you have a version without the deathmetal soundtrack? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el pres Posted September 21, 2008 Share Posted September 21, 2008 (edited) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaPCMW9KMbU Ok, first attempt at making a movie ??? Me and my buddy at RM3G 2008, it's kind of long but I like it !! What do you think ?? Cool video. Do you have a version without the deathmetal soundtrack? Acually, that is the one without the DeathMetal ??? Due to the "hand of iron" camera work, I thought the music fit !! Edited September 21, 2008 by DIRTY CHAMBER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted September 21, 2008 Share Posted September 21, 2008 (edited) knowing the stage content is probably helpful when making comparisons, and drawing conclusions. Trapr Edited September 21, 2008 by bigbrowndog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick S Posted September 21, 2008 Share Posted September 21, 2008 Due to the hand of iron camera work, I thought the music fit !! Thats cool. Sometimes music of any kind is a little distracting (to me) as I'm trying to hear the cadence of the shots/hits etc. Good work. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retzkek Posted September 22, 2008 Share Posted September 22, 2008 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaPCMW9KMbU Ok, first attempt at making a movie ??? Me and my buddy at RM3G 2008, it's kind of long but I like it !! What do you think ?? Great video! Isn't the "shaky cam" the new thing in Hollywood anyways? Great job capturing the experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzzworm Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 Funny thing, I don't see any comments about the 500 and 600 yard targets... Were they THAT easy??? jj A little late, but, I liked the 500- 600 yd targets. It's a rifle stage, shoot 'em. They were challenging, but as you like to say, "it's a big boy match" (the one on 6 wouldn't have been nearly as challenging if I had remembered to turn up my magnificatin ) And I also liked the stages with shooter's choice targets. Shotgun is my weakest point, (all three weapons are my weak points ) so on 7, as soon as I was done with shotgun targets, I could dump it in the barrel and switch over to HG. I liked that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShooterSteve Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 Hey RiggerJJ, I just tried to go to the www.rm3g.com website but it didn't come up for me. Is it down for a while or did I do something wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 www.rm3g.com seems to work for me... jj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShooterSteve Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 I came back about 30 mins later and everything was fine. I guess the stars just weren't lined up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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