Trigger Control

[DonT]

Let me start by saying that I have searched the forum for "trigger control" and am trying some of the practice techniques discussed. I was hoping to get more input on this specific bad habit.

The problem; I subconsciously jerk the trigger causing my shot to go low left. I say subconsciously because I don't know that I'm doing it at that moment. I'm moving fast, I aqcuire the center of the "A" zone, and the instant that my sights are aligned I make the gun go boom and I move to the next target. I know that when I fired, my sights were aligned on the "A" but I obviously jerked the trigger because I will normally get an "A" and "D" or an "A" and Mike on a target. The first shot after aquiring the target is usually the bad one. I have a buddy that watches me run a stage and he says he can see me jerking the shot, so I'm sure that's what I'm doing but I would swear it's a good hit.

I shoot L-10, C-class. At yesterdays local match, I think I came in 5th or 6th overall out of 21 but it wasn't pretty. too many mikes and no-shoots. My mentors tell me to slow down, and I know they're right. I just keep going through this vicious cycle going as fast as I can until I crash and burn, then slowing down and watching everybody pass me, and then going faster to catch up again.

I cannot conceive the thought of coming up to a target, aligning my sights, and gently sqeeeeeezing off my shot. In my mind when my sights are on, I have to pull the trigger as fast as I can before my sights go off target.

To all of you guys that have had this problem and have overcome it, you have my deepest admiration. I am realizing that this is not something that can be cured overnight and I would appreciate any suggestions that you could offer.

Thanks, DonT

After re-reading this, I sound like every other beginner

[G-ManBart]

Is it usually the first shot that's okay and the second that is a poor hit?

It could be that you're actually closing your eyes or moving your eyes to the next target too soon, which is why you aren't calling the bad shot.

A drill would be to shoot two shots and get a third sight picture on the target as if you're going to fire a third shot.

Dry fire can help this as well...Steve Anderson's first book has great dry fire routines that might help.

[Jman]

I'm not sure this is your problem, but it sure was mine. I have battled a low left "hook" all my shooting life. Some local master class shooters have helped. My grip has been adjusted so that it is difficult for me to wrap my trigger finger around the trigger. In other words the new grip allows only the pad to come in contact with the trigger face. Now just 1/3 of the grip pressure is applied with the "trigger hand". This lack of tension there allows light and free movement of the trigger finger. I had to burn this in with dry fire. Whatever it takes to feel only the finger pad applied to the trigger face.

Jim

[buddy_fuentes]

" My mentors tell me to slow down, and I know they're right. I just keep going through this vicious cycle going as fast as I can until I crash and burn, then slowing down and watching everybody pass me, and then going faster to catch up again."

If they tell you to slow down, maybe you should give it a try. One stage or one match won't hurt you in the grand scheme of things. See if there is a difference.

I agree that it sound like you need some dry fire practice. It sounds to me like you are rushing your shots and pushing the trigger to the side.

If something is not working for you...you shouldn't continue doing it. Look for a better way. Most of the matches are won on time saved and accuracy. Pulling the trigger fast is only a small part of a victory.

Good Luck, Buddy

[LPatterson]

I'm moving fast, I acquire the center of the "A" zone, and the instant that my sights are aligned I make the gun go boom and I move to the next target. I know that when I fired, my sights were aligned on the "A" but I obviously jerked the trigger because I will normally get an "A" and "D" or an "A" and Mike on a target. The first shot after acquiring the target is usually the bad one. [/unquote]

Obviously the sights were not aligned when the gun went boom or you would have hit the 'A' zone but then you said move to the next target so is it the first shot or 2nd. Then you said the 1st shot was usually the bad one so it sounds more like slapping the trigger on brown with out stopping the gun first. For a better idea of what you are doing try this drill, set up 2 targets 3 feet apart 10 yards away, start with the gun up and on target level 3 feet outside the targets. At the buzzer transition to the first target and shoot 1 transition to the next target & fire 1. Try both directions several times to establish a pattern, it's better to patch between runs so the holes do not influence your vision. Now try 2 rounds and see if the pattern changes. If it is the 1st shot that is off then you are probably shooting on brown, if it is the 2nd then you are probably starting the transition before finishing the follow through on the 1st shot. BTDTHTTSTPI.

[Matt Griffin]

You might also be tensing up in preparation for the transition. How do your Bill Drills look?

H.

[DonT]

Thanks you guys for taking the time to respond.

I must apologize for a mistake in my post. I said that it is usually the 1st shot that I jerk and that is incorrect. It is the 2nd shot that is way off. I had stayed up late and was writing the post while waiting for the eclipse and my brain was having an eclipse from lack of sleep

G-ManBart;

Guilty as charged on moving my eyes to the next target too soon. Great idea for the drill. I'm going to check it out on my next trip to the range. Thanks!

JimmyM;

Yes I need to work on my grip. I've been told that my grip is too tight. I do touch the trigger with the pad of my finger but it's not a light touch. I am going to practice lightening my grip with my stronghand and adding more grip to weakhand. Also I liked what "BE" suggested in a similar post, to sit there while watching TV or whatever and slowly sqeeze your trigger over and over while relaxing, and do this for a few weeks. Thanks for the tip!

Buddy Fuentes;

Everything you said is right on. I do slow down occasionally and I shoot A's. But I move down in the pack so the next match I speed up again. I push myself faster than my current abilities can handle. I never dryfire___but it's time to start. Thanks for your help!

LPatterson;

Yes I have caught myself slapping the trigger but I do aim at the "A" zone and not just the target. I think what Bart was saying about moving my eyes off of my sights to the next target as I'm pulling (slapping) the trigger has some merit. If I have several targets close together and close up, I definately slap on brown and the movement of my gun never stops on any target. Sometimes I get lucky, sometimes not. But I'm tired of shooting inconsistently. I want to be more consistently precise and the first thing I need to do is work on my trigger control and grip. The drill you suggested sounds great and I'll try it on Sunday. Thanks for your time and input!

Houngan;

"Tensing up in preparation for a transition", your probably right, but I wouldn't consciously know. When that buzzer goes off, I step into this giant adrenaline rush that I don't come out of until I hear, "show clear". I have no idea what my body is doing during that time. I should have someone video tape me running a stage so I can locate all my mistakes. Bill Drills__ I've done them once and I don't even remember what it is. Unfortunately, range time is hard to come by. The first Sunday of the month is open day. Crowded, and mostly a public event. No drills unless it were just a couple of targets straight on with transitions. The remaining Sundays in the month are our local matches so no time for practice or drills. It's time to start dry firing. I can see it's the only way I'm going to improve and beat my bad habits. Thanks for your help!

Thanks again guys, DonT

[HoMiE]

I just recently received some tips from a GM that helped me out tonight regarding trigger control. It's not how fast you can pull the trigger, it's pulling the trigger when the sights are on the target, in a controlled manner (depending on distance to target). He started me off shooting for groups at 25 yards, no timer, no rush, just shoot for group, watching sights lift and settle. He also said to keep the trigger pinned after firing and don't reset until the sights have settled and your back on target. Then reset and pull the trigger without moving the sights or sight picture. Started out slow, then gradually went faster. At first it seemed like I was shooting slower, but I wasn't. I was actually shooting a couple of seconds faster and 2/3 less points down. I was shooting 3 targets 6 feet apart, 20 yards from barricade , shoot from side-tac-load-shoot other side(IDPA classifier, stage 3, string 1). Then we went up to 7 yards and drew and fired 2 shots as quick as you can. Then draw and fire 2 shots really concentrating on the sights. It was kind of an eye opener as to how you might think you are following the sights, but your really not. You may have a clear sight picture or alignment for the first shot and you think it is clear on the second shot, but its not. When you have good sight picture, it seems almost as if you were watching it in slow motion (it does for me anyways), but its not slow on the timer. He also told me when your practicing, don't worry so much about your time, focus on the sight picture you need to see. The timer should just be a start buzzer and the speed will come as you start to see things faster.

[DonT]

I just recently received some tips from a GM that helped me out tonight regarding trigger control. It's not how fast you can pull the trigger, it's pulling the trigger when the sights are on the target, in a controlled manner (depending on distance to target). He started me off shooting for groups at 25 yards, no timer, no rush, just shoot for group, watching sights lift and settle. He also said to keep the trigger pinned after firing and don't reset until the sights have settled and your back on target. Then reset and pull the trigger without moving the sights or sight picture. Started out slow, then gradually went faster. At first it seemed like I was shooting slower, but I wasn't. I was actually shooting a couple of seconds faster and 2/3 less points down. I was shooting 3 targets 6 feet apart, 20 yards from barricade , shoot from side-tac-load-shoot other side(IDPA classifier, stage 3, string 1). Then we went up to 7 yards and drew and fired 2 shots as quick as you can. Then draw and fire 2 shots really concentrating on the sights. It was kind of an eye opener as to how you might think you are following the sights, but your really not. You may have a clear sight picture or alignment for the first shot and you think it is clear on the second shot, but its not. When you have good sight picture, it seems almost as if you were watching it in slow motion (it does for me anyways), but its not slow on the timer. He also told me when your practicing, don't worry so much about your time, focus on the sight picture you need to see. The timer should just be a start buzzer and the speed will come as you start to see things faster.

WOW, This is what I was hoping for This sounds excellent. I can do some of this at the range on Sunday. The rest of it can only be done if I can talk an RO into staying later after our next match. But you know everybody wants to get home and enjoy the remainder of their weekend. Sometimes if it's too windy on match day we will do some drills or shoot steel. But this is some great stuff and I really appreciate you sharing it with me. I can't wait to try it out

Thanks, DonT

[Alan550]

Sounds as if you're getting on the trigger too quick for the second shot too. There's a section in Brian's book on just shooting at the backstop and watching the way the sights track after each shot. Could be that the sights aren't tracking back onto the target after the first shot.

Try that and see where the sights go after the first shot. If they aren't coming right back where they should, you need to adjust your grip some to compensate for that so they will track straight back onto the center of the target.

Alan~^~

[SA Friday]

I think Homie has it... It sounds like you might be skipping the follow-through of your shots. You can also try visualizing this... Think of your first shot on the target and concentrate on the follow through of the first shot. pop the round off and retain the trigger to the rear. DO NOT let the trigger reset until you visually recognized an 'A' shot for the second shot and then trigger reset and pop. concentrating on the first follow through may stop you from rushing the second shot and pushing the shot off.

[Jake Di Vita]

Your trigger control is directly correlated to your desire to hit the target. As you are pulling the trigger you need to be visually aware of what your gun is doing. Trigger control is not necessarily never moving the sights, it is making continual small adjustments to ensure that the sights stay within the target area.

Slowing down is never an option. Instead of slowing down, decide to see more and pay attention to everything that is happening at the time of the shot.

[JFD]

While not very cool or tehnical, shooting a DA wheelgun like a fiend until you can tear up a plate rack will give you the trigger control to shoot anything well.

I fired over 2K rounds in 2 days out of my 686 preparing for a surprise revolver match several years ago (I never shoot revolvers in matches). Since then, plus some additional wheelgun practice every year or so, I've had no issues with trigger control. I can pick up any auto, regardless of action type, and shoot it well.

Trigger control is a lot like practicing golf at the local driving range. You can do odd things to fool yourself into thinking all is well, yet when you go to play a round of golf it all falls apart. There are no ways that I know of to fool yourself with a DA wheelgun and a plate rack. You either have trigger control or you don't. Shooting an auto at a match while under pressure will be a dream by comparison. It was for me.

The DA revolver doesn't lie. If you do it wrong, you will miss. Very simple with no guesswork.

My 0.02 anyway.

[Crusher]

Don't EVER, NEVER, EVER think of speed (or slow) you MUST allways finish the shot, one at a time, every time then move to the next action (shoot, move, whatever).

The timer is what it is, and says what it says, if you continue to worry about time while your shooting, you will never focus on the shooting.

Find spot, shoot spot, move along, in that order and the time will take care of itself.

[DonT]

Ok, well guys it's been a couple of weeks since I asked for your help. I thought I would let you know of my progress. That first week I took my gun out of the safe at nights and pulled the trigger over and over. I concentrated on the take up and the break and the overtravel. I also immediately noticed a major problem when I started doing this. My finger tip was actually pushing the whole gun "low and left" when I would pull the trigger. Even after noticing this it was hard not to do it. I started playing around with my grip and putting less pressure on my strong hand and more on my week hand. I even started bringing my finger into the trigger at a slightly different angle and slowly started squeezing the trigger straight back. After doing this over and over I could see that the gun is not moving anymore. I'm pulling straight back on the trigger and it works!!! (light goes on, duh) I had thought that I was always pulling straight back but I wasn't.

So last Sunday 9/2, we had "open day" at our range. I was able to do some of the drills that you guys suggested along with my new found trigger pull and life was good. I especially like the one about holding the trigger all the way back until my sights are back on target and then releasing and pulling again. I was amazed at how well this worked.

Saturday the 8th, another "open day". Did more trigger drills and continued from the week before but mostly making sure my AR was running for a 2-gun local match that we have coming up in a couple of weeks.

Sunday the 9th, (today). Local match. I am soooo lucky, I got chosen to be first shooter on the first stage of the day. So with 2 weeks of grip and trigger pull practice under my belt I step into the box and make ready. In the second that it took for the buzzer to go off and me to draw, I forgot everything that I had been practicing. In the eleven or so seconds that it took to run the stage I reverted back to all my bad habits. I guess 2 weeks just isn't enough time to burn this into my brain where it becomes reaction... The day wasn't all that bad. We had four stages and there was about the usual number of people (15-20) and I think I came in 4th overall. I actually won a stage. It was the last stage of the day and I had told some of the guys that since I've already blown the match, I'm going to have fun on this one. It was a 30 round run and gun. Wow, what a rush!!! Even dropped a mag on the ground during a reload and had to pick it up cause I thought I would need it, and still won!!! (BTW 10round state).

So I have come to the conlusion that I am not going to be able to achieve in a year and a half, what you guys and my buddies in our club have spent many years of hard work perfecting. It's going to take me just as long. I think newbies are probably like teenagers. You teach 'em, you lecture them, and you try to show them the right way so they don't make the same mistakes you did. But in the end, they are going to do what works for them and you can only hope that some of what you said sticks with them.

I am amazed at all the different responses that I got and the different ways of approching this sport. Jake said, "Slowing down is never an option. Instead of slowing down, decide to see more and pay attention to everything that is happening at the time of the shot". And Crusher say's, 'Don't EVER, NEVER, EVER think of speed (or slow) you MUST allways finish the shot, one at a time, every time then move to the next action (shoot, move, whatever)'. And what's amazing is that they are both 100% right. Just a different means of achieving the same goal. But Jake, I have to say that was very profound. And with your permission I would like to have that embroidered on my range bag. "Slowing down is never an option".

I want to sincerely thank all of you guys for taking the interest and time out of you're busy schedules to offer your experience and knowledge to a complete stranger. I now know what I am suppose to be doing, you have given me the tools to do it, the rest is up to me. What a great group of guys! What a great forum! And what a great sport we're in!

Thanks again

DonT

I want to apologize for the "book", and I want to apologize to the powers that be. I am realizing now that perhaps this whole thing should have been posted in "Shooting Discussions/Training Techniques"

Edited for accuracy_ Just received our match results and I was mistaken. The stage I talked about winning, I didn't. I came in 2nd. It was another stage that I got 1st. The other two, crash & burn.

Edited September 10, 2007 by DonT

[Jake Di Vita]

No problem bud.

Let me know if I can be of any further help.

[benos]

Slowing down is never an option. Instead of slowing down, decide to see more and pay attention to everything that is happening at the time of the shot.

+10.

Paying attention is where it's at.

be

Or wise words from Bodhidharma: "Everything good has awareness for its root."

[Paladin]

DonT, I appreciate your openness about this 'sticking point'. Years, ago I subscribed to the 'light trigger' concept and it worked well for me in practice. In a match though I would miss the A zones of targets that I was not supposed to miss..especially on the 2nd shot.. i tried everything including slowing down, changing the guns, making the trigger lighter etc. still i had the occassional blooper.. then it dawned on me that I was not feeling the trigger on the second shot.. sure I was seeing sights lift etc. but I was not feeling the trigger. Then i came across a statement from Ron Avery that the pressing of the trigger must be an involved feeling. I started experiencing with heavier triggers and that solved the problem.. I started having a relationship with my trigger..

With the light trigger I was just not getting needed feedback.. it is not only about the sights and feedback from the sights but from the trigger as well.. tailor your trigger to suit your strength and temperament!! At 6 feet and 240 lbs. and an aggressive personality, i just did not have the finesse to caress a 2 lb trigger under duress in a match (practice was fine) and I ended up slamming the trigger into the frame thereby jerking the gun.. I turned up the poundage a bit and 'we were more in sync..