points vs speed

[xdrocker]

I know that you "can't miss fast enough to win" but the question I have is, At what percentage of points do you start to pick up the speed and push yourself to go faster, posibly dropping a few points until the new speed starts to click, 85, 90, 95? Example, I had several stages at a local match today with 110-150 points available and finished only 3-4 points down. I can't honestly tell you I called the shot, because I get so hyped up before a shoot that sometimes I just go on autopilot and have at it. Immediately after the stage I couldn't tell you my sight picture if my life depended on it.

[HSMITH]

Just shoot the points as fast as you can, don't think fast or slow. I want to get 95% or more of the available points that doesn't happen every time, but that is what I want.

[G-ManBart]

I don't think it's something you can gauge while you're actually shooting because often, fast feels slow and vice-versa. However, if you find that you're consistently getting over 95% of the points but are way slow, it's time to take a look at what you're doing and evaluate.

[Gary1911A1]

After years of shooting I know you can only shoot as fast as you can see. If you are only 3 or 4 points down, which is often my case too, then movement is where we need to focus. No pun intended.

[38superman]

If you shot an entire match and only dropped 3 or 4 points, it is definately time to dial up the speed a notch or two.

[Ben Stoeger]

I know that you "can't miss fast enough to win" but the question I have is, At what percentage of points do you start to pick up the speed and push yourself to go faster, posibly dropping a few points until the new speed starts to click, 85, 90, 95?

I look to save wasted time no matter how many or how few points I shoot.

Shooting all A's on a stage doesn't mean that I went "to slow".

Dropping 4 misses doesn't mean that I can't find a way to shoot the stage with a better time.

Thats how I roll anyway... YMMV

[SRT Driver]

While "90 to 95%" is a great measure, don't limit yourself to a finite number. If you do, you will be limited to that number.

Maybe a better goal is to not shoot above your ability. That is your ability to see, to call the shot, to move smoothly.

Everyone's ability is diiferent..know your ability; your strengths and weaknesses. That way you will know when you can

push or dial it down. Play to your strengths. If you move fast..move. If your draw is fast...

Finally, everyone's ability changes from day to day. Learn to recognize that as well.

[Flexmoney]

I know that you "can't miss fast enough to win" but the question I have is, At what percentage of points do you start to pick up the speed and push yourself to go faster, posibly dropping a few points until the new speed starts to click, 85, 90, 95? Example, I had several stages at a local match today with 110-150 points available and finished only 3-4 points down. I can't honestly tell you I called the shot, because I get so hyped up before a shoot that sometimes I just go on autopilot and have at it. Immediately after the stage I couldn't tell you my sight picture if my life depended on it.

Relax. Let yourself see. Then, you will be able to notice the things that you can do more efficiently. That will allow you to go faster. Trying will close you down.

[rubberneck]

I don't know where you are as a shooter, but recently I have come to the conclusion that I been putting the cart before the horse. I was always worried about being faster while shooting when I should have been worried about doing everything else faster.

For me I spend much more time drawing, reloading, moving and transitioning between targets than I do on actual shooting. Speeding up the shooting part won't lead me to improve as quickly as cutting down on all the other stuff. In my case, being able to run really fast splits is useless if I am losing more time on my transitions. In my mind I can have my cake and eat it too. If I speed up on all the other stuff I can still be accurate when I am on the target.

As I get better, and the competition gets stiffer I am sure that I'll have to tighten those splits, but until I am as fast as I can get with my draws, reloads, course management and transitions than it isn't worth it to me to try and push the actual shooting part and risk dropping points. YMMV.

[rwmagnus]

I don't know where you are as a shooter, but recently I have come to the conclusion that I been putting the cart before the horse. I was always worried about being faster while shooting when I should have been worried about doing everything else faster.

For me I spend much more time drawing, reloading, moving and transitioning between targets than I do on actual shooting. Speeding up the shooting part won't lead me to improve as quickly as cutting down on all the other stuff. In my case, being able to run really fast splits is useless if I am losing more time on my transitions. In my mind I can have my cake and eat it too. If I speed up on all the other stuff I can still be accurate when I am on the target.

As I get better, and the competition gets stiffer I am sure that I'll have to tighten those splits, but until I am as fast as I can get with my draws, reloads, course management and transitions than it isn't worth it to me to try and push the actual shooting part and risk dropping points. YMMV.

All the advise in this thread is valuable but your really nailed it. My guess is a lot depends on your ability but shooting high C to mid B class... drawing, reloading, moving and transitions are the time burners. I find myself sometimes not being agressive and burning .25-.50 more on just the draw or missing a reload point. Then there is always the effeciency of movement and transitions issue to deal with.

Keep it smooth, keep it quick and shoot as fast as the targets allow is good advice.

[Rocket35]

I think Rubberneck and Ben have the right approach. If shooting with Ben has showed me anything, it is that you need to get to the shooting as fast as possible and take the time necessary to make the shot on each individual target. That may mean a relaxed precise split on a 20 yard hardcover target or a blazing fast "type one" split on a 5 yard open target. Speeding up your draws, reloads and movement are much more "sensible" than speeding up your shooting to the point of not seeing each shot off. As Ben puts it- "thats how I roll anyways"- Good luck and keep taking an interest in your shooting!!

[AZ38super]

I don't know where you are as a shooter, but recently I have come to the conclusion that I been putting the cart before the horse. I was always worried about being faster while shooting when I should have been worried about doing everything else faster.

For me I spend much more time drawing, reloading, moving and transitioning between targets than I do on actual shooting. Speeding up the shooting part won't lead me to improve as quickly as cutting down on all the other stuff. In my case, being able to run really fast splits is useless if I am losing more time on my transitions. In my mind I can have my cake and eat it too. If I speed up on all the other stuff I can still be accurate when I am on the target.

As I get better, and the competition gets stiffer I am sure that I'll have to tighten those splits, but until I am as fast as I can get with my draws, reloads, course management and transitions than it isn't worth it to me to try and push the actual shooting part and risk dropping points. YMMV.

This is very well put. I have talked with TGO on this subject a few times and he admits he is not as fast as the younger guys and has 2 bad knees but he makes up the time everywhere else like draws, transistions and reloads and still wins.

[3 gun]

Just looking at this as a stat problem, some quick math based on GM winners at major matches, puts the "A's" in the mid 70's by percent. The lowest A% I found for a GM winner was 67. The highest A% was 79. I'm sure there are winners above and below these but I believe these numbers give a reasonable bracket. Based on this I try to pick my pace up if my "A" total goes above 80% and I try to slow down if I drop below 70%. Of course "A's" can't be your only guide. While not perfect it does give me a point to judge how well I'm doing on pace-v-points and what to work on during my next practice.

[xdrocker]

If you shot an entire match and only dropped 3 or 4 points, it is definately time to dial up the speed a notch or two.

No, just maybe 3-4 out of six stages not the whole thing. I did have have a few (2-3) d's thrown in to keep me honest and slow me down. But NO mikes.

Just looking at this as a stat problem, some quick math based on GM winners at major matches, puts the "A's" in the mid 70's by percent. The lowest A% I found for a GM winner was 67. The highest A% was 79. I'm sure there are winners above and below these but I believe these numbers give a reasonable bracket. Based on this I try to pick my pace up if my "A" total goes above 80% and I try to slow down if I drop below 70%. Of course "A's" can't be your only guide. While not perfect it does give me a point to judge how well I'm doing on pace-v-points and what to work on during my next practice.

That's the answer I was looking for I was guesstimating between 80-85% range. From what I've seen and the videos online I doubted (read: knew) any of the top shooters were shooting over 90-95%. Those guys are crazy fast and I just can't believe that a lot of the shots aren't muscle memory and indexing. But I'm not that good to worry about that right now,(B-L & L-10) one crisis at a time.

Thanks to all the responses. I think I have an idea were to start now.

[xdrocker]

Yeah, need to work transitions big time and tighten up my draw time some. Last local match shot 94.4% of points, but pertty slow.

[shooterbenedetto]

In Local matches, it depends on who will set the bar for overall points. a GM or a B shooter?? SHOOT FOR POINTS AND SPEED WILL COMEit is a good practice!!

after 3months, evaluate and work on movement, reload,draw and transition. then check it again.

on practice, ALWAYS WORK ON YOUR WEAKNESSES!! not your strong skills.

Edited August 21, 2007 by shooterbenedetto

[G-ManBart]

If you shot an entire match and only dropped 3 or 4 points, it is definately time to dial up the speed a notch or two.

No, just maybe 3-4 out of six stages not the whole thing. I did have have a few (2-3) d's thrown in to keep me honest and slow me down. But NO mikes.

Just looking at this as a stat problem, some quick math based on GM winners at major matches, puts the "A's" in the mid 70's by percent. The lowest A% I found for a GM winner was 67. The highest A% was 79. I'm sure there are winners above and below these but I believe these numbers give a reasonable bracket. Based on this I try to pick my pace up if my "A" total goes above 80% and I try to slow down if I drop below 70%. Of course "A's" can't be your only guide. While not perfect it does give me a point to judge how well I'm doing on pace-v-points and what to work on during my next practice.

That's the answer I was looking for I was guesstimating between 80-85% range. From what I've seen and the videos online I doubted (read: knew) any of the top shooters were shooting over 90-95%. Those guys are crazy fast and I just can't believe that a lot of the shots aren't muscle memory and indexing. But I'm not that good to worry about that right now,(B-L & L-10) one crisis at a time.

Thanks to all the responses. I think I have an idea were to start now.

You may want to reexamine the math there. I don't think he's suggesting a winning GM shot 80% of the points on a stage, he's talking about 80% of the shots being A's...big difference. On a typical stage with 30 hits required, if you shoot 80% of them A's and the rest C's, you would have dropped only 6 points! That works out to 96% of the points. If you shot that low of 67% A's you would have dropped 10 points and that's 93% of the points.

[uscbigdawg]

You want the points. If you try to go fast, you will go slow, or drop the points. Don't think in terms of fast & slow. Think in terms of finishing the task at hand at immediately moving to the next one.

Rich

[tgibson]

I might be way off base here, but how fast or slow I shoot is directly dependent on what I think the hit factor might end up being. Besides, isn't the hit factor how many points you are getting per second? If I am on a high hit factor stage I dial things up a bit. Usually these are in your face targets that are less than 7 yards away and there are a lot of them you can shoot in very quickly. I usually go with an "acceptable" sight picture on these if any at all. A lot of the time I will point shoot these. Here I don't worry about getting high points. I try to shoot it very fast though.

On stages with low hit factors (8hf or less) I dial things down and really try to shoot A's. These stages usually have a lot of movement and long range targets, or targets with hard cover or no shoots around them. Now, with all this being said, you have to remember that is is coming from someone who just made A in limited and started out as the guy who thought he could miss fast enough to win. I went through more ammo and hit less targets than anyone else in our club for the first six months I shot! From there I went to the total opposite extreme. I shot fairly slowly but would very often have the most points on every stage.

Basically the way I look at it is if it is a high HF (9 or higher), I shoot fast and don't worry so much about points. If the HF is less than 9 or so, I go back to the way I usually shoot trying to get all A's. Take all of this for what it is worth.

TG

[HSMITH]

I took a class with Manny and Ted. First day was with Manny, and the patent pending Manny field course. First run was just like I would see it at a match, not a shot fired, look it over for 5 minutes, then LAMR. I shot this particular 32 rounder in something like 15.7 seconds, but was down a BUNCH of points and in the low 7's for hit factor. Worked with Manny on movement, transitions, set up and leaving. Early afternoon we shot it again for score, never shot a split under .25 and my time was within a tenth of what it was earlier. Was only down 6 points though. The bottom line is my hit factor went UP by 2.4 to mid 9's. I did everything BUT the shooting more efficiently, had more time to shoot quality shots, and just hammered my hit factor doing it 'my way'. Epiphany? Yup. Changed the way I look at this game for sure.

[tgibson]

About two months ago, I had the same enlightening moment. Isn't that great!

[rwmagnus]

I took a class with Manny and Ted. First day was with Manny, and the patent pending Manny field course. First run was just like I would see it at a match, not a shot fired, look it over for 5 minutes, then LAMR. I shot this particular 32 rounder in something like 15.7 seconds, but was down a BUNCH of points and in the low 7's for hit factor. Worked with Manny on movement, transitions, set up and leaving. Early afternoon we shot it again for score, never shot a split under .25 and my time was within a tenth of what it was earlier. Was only down 6 points though. The bottom line is my hit factor went UP by 2.4 to mid 9's. I did everything BUT the shooting more efficiently, had more time to shoot quality shots, and just hammered my hit factor doing it 'my way'. Epiphany? Yup. Changed the way I look at this game for sure.

Yep "movement, transitions, set up and leaving" that's where the big gains are made on most stages.