Rifle - Rules Question - Rifle Rest

[Exodus]

Is it OK to use a backpack as a rifle rest during USPSA 3-gun competition? If not, what rule or rules come into play?

Thanks X

Edited June 14, 2007 by Exodus

[Chris]

Only in Open division. Bipods and similiar supports are not allowed in Tactical and Standard divisions.

http://www.uspsa.org/rules/2004RifleRulesFinal.pdf

See page 72-74.

[Exodus]

Only in Open division. Bipods and similiar supports are not allowed in Tactical and Standard divisions.

http://www.uspsa.org/rules/2004RifleRulesFinal.pdf

See page 72-74.

Tactical - The use of bipods and similar are allowed - NO

Standard - The use of bipods and similar are allowed - NO

It doesn't say "similiar supports". It just says "similar". A bipod, monopod or similar is attached to the rifle. Appendix D2 is talking about the rifle and ammo. Nothing as far as external gear. Shooting gloves, elbow pads, kneepads are not addressed in Appendix D2. A backpack is not attached to the rifle thus it is like a glove or other external equipment.

The term "similar" is very vague in this context.

[Chris]

Best bet is to check with the match director and get his decision.

I've never seen it done at any 3 gun match I've been too. Using a 30 rnd mag as a monopod works just as good for me.

[Exodus]

I requested more info from RM Troy McManus

His response:

--------------------------

Hi. I've copied John (Amidon, Director/NROI) on this one, for official info. IMO, similar is not a backpack, but something specifically designed to prop up the rifle. I believe that we've allowed use of "personal equipment" as temporary rifle rests in the past.

Troy

--------------------------

John Amidon's reply.

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Similar refers to monopods, tripods, or whatever one can think of, but it must be a part of the rifle.

Regards,

John Amidon

Edited June 14, 2007 by Exodus

[Sestock]

Why can't John ever just say yes or no on an answer. Most of us like black and white, not gray answers.

[Chuck Anderson]

He did say yes or no. The last part of the sentence "but it must be a part of the rifle." If it ain't attached you're good to go.

[bgary]

But do you have to carry it for the whole stage? <evil grin>

[Jim Norman]

So, if the long range rifle targets are at the beginning of a stage, you COULD drop your backpack and use it as a rest, but probably be required to bring it along with you for the balance of the stage. If they were at the end of the COF, you could just drop it and use it as a rest.

The big question then is: Do you have to wear the backpack for all the rest of the match? And can you put it on for this stage, if you have not been wearing it prior? Kneepads, add or remove stage by stage, same as say a pair of convertable trousers, take the legs off as the day warms up. Would a patrol pack with aenough bulk to actually work as a rest be allowed tobe used and if so, would you need it on all stages.

Just trying to expand the question to its fullest here.

Jim

[Gregory_k]

Do you have all your mags at the end of a stage?

[Chuck Anderson]

But do you have to carry it for the whole stage? <evil grin>

Naughty Bruce, go back to your corner

[George]

This is a very good question. I think this loophole need to be looked through a bit and cleaned up.

I have seen competitors use a backpack as a rest at IMG matches where it has also been determined by the MD that the backpack must stay with the competitor throughout the COF when used like this.

I think USPSA should do the same thing here for the purposes of clarification. This is indeed a gray area.

[hopalong]

Let me toss a little in here...............

The back pack will most likely have to be worn for the entire match (at least during the stages).

Last years Handgun Nationals brought out a similar question regarding a pouch used on the stage with the mags/reloads on the golf cart. One gentleman used a pouch on his belt, so some observant others attempted to install a pouch on theirs while waiting to shoot.........then someone asked for a ruling.

It was ruled that it was OK to use it but it must be used for the entire match from start to stop, not just that stage or from that stage on.

Something to think about.

Hop

[D.Hayden]

3 Gun has way different rules for equipment than handgun rules. People are changing thier belt setups all the tuime. I can't see why this would be any different.. if it's allowed.

I'd rather say you can't use it. Either it's attached to the rifle, or it's a prop that's on the stage already for everyone to use.

[Jim Norman]

I like Berkim's thoughts, but with this caveat. the pack is on the stage, use it as you wish, BUT you must carry it through out the stage, either regardless of whether you use it, or if you use it.

Want to wear your own pack as well? Go for it.

And then there is the NC Recon, Carry your rifle,pistol mags, ammo, food and water for the WHOLE DAY, even while taping targets. It can really get hot in North Carolina. Want to use your pack as a rest, fine, but you better not leave it behind, nor can you, IF I remember correctly, leave a loaded mag behind.

Jim

[TRUBL]

From what I seein in the USPSA rules......a back pack (or similar) is fine to use in any division. Yes, very vague, may end up in arbitration some day.

IMGA.....says something WAY different, to the point even, were I've said.....technically in the tacital and he man Divisions.....you couldn't use your 30 round mag as a support. I know, I know.....people do all the time. But read the rule.

[Flexmoney]

I'd rather say you can't use it. Either it's attached to the rifle, or it's a prop that's on the stage already for everyone to use.

+1

[Exodus]

3 Gun has way different rules for equipment than handgun rules. People are changing thier belt setups all the tuime. I can't see why this would be any different.. if it's allowed.

I'd rather say you can't use it. Either it's attached to the rifle, or it's a prop that's on the stage already for everyone to use.

See post 5 above. There is no "if", it is allowed. You can use a backpack for a rifle rest in USPSA 3-gun matches. John Amidon: USPSA/VP and Director/NROI says so.

No you don't have to wear it for the entire match. It is considered "personal equipment" just like knee pads or elbow pads. There is nothing saying you can't ditch it part way through a stage either.

Here is the USPSA Rifle Rule Book: http://www.uspsa.org/rules/2004RifleRulesFinal.pdf

Edited June 28, 2007 by Exodus

[Exodus]

The back pack will most likely have to be worn for the entire match (at least during the stages).

Last years Handgun Nationals brought out a similar question regarding a pouch used on the stage with the mags/reloads on the golf cart. One gentleman used a pouch on his belt, so some observant others attempted to install a pouch on theirs while waiting to shoot.........then someone asked for a ruling.

It was ruled that it was OK to use it but it must be used for the entire match from start to stop, not just that stage or from that stage on.

I disagree. Belt equipment is different from personal equipment. Do you HAVE to wear the same hat, shirt, elbow pads, glasses, etc. during the entire match?

[D.Hayden]

See post 5 above. There is no "if", it is allowed. You can use a backpack for a rifle rest in USPSA 3-gun matches. John Amidon: USPSA/VP and Director/NROI says so.

I know.. I'm just saying.. it's the same as other equipment.. but still...

I'm sticking with: (how, i'd like it to be)

Either it's attached to the rifle, or it's a prop that's on the stage already for everyone to use.

Before long people will be setting up whole shootng benches..

[Exodus]

Before long people will be setting up whole shootng benches..

That is kinda unrealistic. But , I can imagine a real world scenario where I would grab my rifle and a light assault pack and run out to fight off Zombie hoards. Thus a backpack could be expected to be among one's personal fighting gear and not so out of place as one might imagine at a 3-gun match.

[D.Hayden]

Of course it's unrealistic... that's why the rules need to be tightened up...

[George]

Yes, it is indeed a loophole in USPSA rules and it does need to be clarified. An "interpretation" by JA is not as good as a concise rule that reads clearly IMHO. Anything not weapon, magazine/ammo, or holster/mag-holder related is eaither a prop, or a tool in my estimation.

There are rules about all of these things and all we really need to do here is define what a backpack "really" is. If it "really" is a mag-holder, or holster, then it's useable and discardable. If it's a prop, or a tool, then it's not. End of story. I personally think it should be called a tool and therefore be un-useable during the course of fire even if carried as an ostensible ammo holder.

A backpack is also not a bipod, or a sling in my mind and so shouldn't be covered by these rules.

Just my slice of world view, but one that I feel is reasonable.

[D.Hayden]

The problem is.. no matter what Sedro says in an email reply to someone.. different MDs will interpret the current rule differently..

And at the match, it's what they say that matters.

I would guess that most would not allow it.. but that's just a wag...

[Exodus]

The problem is.. no matter what Sedro says in an email reply to someone.. different MDs will interpret the current rule differently..

And at the match, it's what they say that matters.

I would guess that most would not allow it.. but that's just a wag...

The MD can't just make up a reason to disallow something. He has (or should have) to use the rules to make his case. In RO school they told us: "If it isn't specifically forbidden, it is allowed"