Moving RWR

[Crusher]

Cover points/locations should ALWAYS be defined in the WSB for each individual stage, this way everyone is clear on "where you can, and where you can't".

The rule book surely does not define cover, it mearly states that all reloads must start and finish behind it.

Most if not all of the confusion found in a stage is directly related to a piss poor WSB and/or lack of knowledge on the part of the CSO/SO (kind of like the screw ups we see in a USPSA stage too ) either of which can (and when it happens does) cost someone a match.

[dirtypool40]

The rule book surely does not define cover, it mearly states that all reloads must start and finish behind it.

Wow, great point. I guess I should know more about IDPA before I let them beat on me.

We had this happen at FL State this year. Can stow or load on the move here but not there. Very inconsistent from one stage to another. Within individual stages I think the SO's were consistent shooter to shooter, but it still left you wondering what the rules were "for THIS stage".

In spite of it all, I had a blast. A buddy used to run our local IDPA club, and another buddy just took it over, so I see more IDPA in the cards for me. That's why I am trying to learn it.

Edited July 19, 2007 by dirtypool40

[kruger]

It has nothing to do with the threat being neutralized or not. It just clearly states where the reloads must take place. It says nothing about the "Remaining threat targets"

It says nothings about remaining threat targets, because that is implicit in the definition of cover. Cover makes no sense if the threat is not considered. If you consider possible threats in the definition of cover, then gray areas develop as folks will consider different possibilities. You can imagine the silly scenario of an SO applying procedurals since the shooter was visible to the SO, and therefore not using cover.

Benny, the rulebook is specific on this issue with no grey areas. If one has neutralized a target in a hallway and is still standing in the hallway, they are not behind cover, so no reload can be performed.

So, if there is a second target to the side of the first, visible, target, you can't engage the second target without getting a cover penalty, right? Or is cover one thing when you are shooting and another thing when you are reloading?

Hey, at least we are hashing out these differences in a reasonably adult fashion.

[dirtypool40]

So, if there is a second target to the side of the first, visible, target, you can't engage the second target without getting a cover penalty, right? Or is cover one thing when you are shooting and another thing when you are reloading?

Hey, at least we are hashing out these differences in a reasonably adult fashion.

aren't we a great example of that polite society?

But I think we're driving in circles, some want to BY GOD!! administer the rules as they interpret them, others see the contradiction and want things clarified.

I don't see a lot of "oooooooh, ok, I get it" from either side.

Edited July 19, 2007 by dirtypool40

[tightloop]

Only way to know for certain is ask the MD, at any particular match...

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Crossing a doorway while reloading is a PE by the rules. It is one of the few clear rules in the book.

I saw nothing in what you posted specifically mentioning crossing a doorway.

I think the major point of contention between the two camps here seems to be the definition of "cover".

If you disagree with the definition I gave above as I interpret it, give me your definition of cover.

If I have to, I will hand feed you the rule book. Any dark areas below are my emphasis not that of IDPA.

Appendix THREE - Cover

More than 50% of the shooter’s upper torso must be behind cover while engaging threat targets and/or reloading. For low cover, one knee must be on the ground and for vertical cover such as a wall/barricade, 100% of the shooter’s legs and feet must be behind cover.

A general rule of thumb is that the shooter will have to lean out of cover more for each target he engages (slicing the pie). The distance between the threat targets will determine how much more the shooter must poke out in order to engage the targets. A shooter who engages more than one target from the same position has not been using cover properly.

When possible, having the scorekeeper stand directly behind the competitor (after the gun is drawn) will assist the SO in determining if 50% exposure was maintained. However, in most instances, the safety officer can position himself so both the shooter’s gun and relationship to the targets can both be observed.

Safety Officers who observe a shooter not using cover properly should shout the command “COVER”. The shooter should immediately correct his use of cover. IDPA understands many shooters are often too fast in engaging targets for the SO to be able to warn the shooter in time. Therefore, if the Safety Officer did not have the time or opportunity to yell “COVER” before the shooter engaged targets without using cover properly, the shooter still earns a procedural error.

All reloads must be executed from cover (if cover is available) and must be completed before leaving cover. A shooter is deemed loaded and may move from a position of cover ONLY when the fresh magazine is FULLY SEATED and the slide is fully forward or revolver cylinder is closed. Shooters may not move from one position of cover to another with an empty gun. Reloads must be completed from cover, however this does not mean that a shooter must duck back completely behind cover to reload before reengaging targets from a stationary firing point. The contestant may keep his eyes on his next “opponent” as long as he follows the definition of cover and does not expose too much of his body to the next threat target.

So, according to the rule book, you must use cover as defined above while engaging threats AND/OR reloading. To me that states any time you are reloading or any time you are engaging threats. So to be blunt, your interpretation is incorrect as was the SOs determination at the MD State match you related to.

This is the problem I have seen in many matches in the various sports. As a volunteer game, many that volunteer do so to help out. Many of the volunteers have not kept up to date with rule changes. Their help is very important to the sports but accuracy in the rules is also important whether it is IDPA, USPSA, ICORE, chess, checkers, baseball or any other game.

The sports live only with the help of volunteers so we thank them and politely correct their mistakes and hope no one suffers the loss of the ever so important trophy due to someones error.

Regards,

Gary

Edited July 19, 2007 by Round_Gun_Shooter

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Quote you list from the rulebook

"A general rule of thumb is that the shooter will have to lean out of cover more for each target he engages (slicing the pie)."

So, IDPA headquarters is saying that once you engage a target, you can expose yourself to it to engage further targets. To me they are saying that once you've engaged a target, cover no longer applies to it.

Hand-feed me? Please, condescending comments aren't called for. I certainly didn't provoke it.

The problem Sir is you are not reading the rules you are trying to interpret them. Read them for what they are.

The hand feeding comment was out of line and I apologize for the comment. It was made because you seem to be disagreeing just for the sake of disagreeing..

What I will say is you need to learn the rules of this sport and not try to interpret them. You need to read them, apply them, and understand them as written. If you have not taken a Safety Officer Course, I suggest you do so.

The rules you are disagreeing with are the most clear ones in the book. You are trying to equate slicing the pie to engage targets to reloading which is specifically stated by rule as an act to be completed behind cover. It has nothing to do with slicing the pie.

As said by someone else, this is going in circles. The rules are on line at IDPA HQ

[RobMoore]

I'm simply trying to apply some logic to achieve a consistent interpretation.

I think you're still stuck on the idea that being "behind cover" for a reload means your body has to be next to a barrier of some sort. I don't see is stated that narrowly in the rulebook. As stated above, "behind cover" to me means that there is a barrier between me and the targets that I have left to engage. This seems consistent with the above quote from the rulebook that allows you to expose more of yourself gradually as you engage targets.

You want to separate reloading cover from slicing the pie. IDPA seems to call them the same "if you are using cover adequately while firing it will also beadequate cover while reloading". Seems clear as day to me. If slicing the pie, and exposing yourself to targets you've shot so you can get to targets you haven't shot, then you should not have to worry about exposing yourself to targets you've already shot when reloading.

[racerba]

Reloads must be completed from cover, however this does not mean that a shooter must duck back completely behind cover to reload before reengaging targets from a stationary firing point. The contestant may keep his eyes on his next "opponent" as long as he follows the definition of cover and does not expose too much of his body to the next threat target.

OK - The above is right after what you highlighted.

To me this says that the competitors may exposed themselves to targets had they already engaged without penalty while reloading. So if a competitor already engaged a target in a hallway, then they may expose themselves to that target while reloading. That's not an interpretation, just applying the rule consistently.

Edited July 19, 2007 by racerba

[SMSI]

It seems ot me that "cover" must mean "cover from targets not yet engaged." I have shot stages where you draw or pick up the gun and engage a very close target or two. For example, starting seated at a desk and picking up the gun from the desk and engaging 2 targets just on thee other side of the desk. Then you move aroung the desk and past those targets to a window or wall, which is cover from the next targets. However, the first targets engaged are not behind any cover, and may be "standing" directly behind the shooter as he engages the next array. So, being exposed to engaged targets cannot necessarily mean someone is not behind cover.

To take it a step further, let's say that the shooter cannot see the 2nd array (and they can't "see" him) as he moves from the desk to the window. Is he behind cover as he moves? Technically, I think he is, and therfore he can reload. But I also see how you could say he is moving from one cover position to another, so therefore he cannot reload. I like the argument that he can reload better, but I see the other side.

This is a great discussion. I'm learning a lot about IDPA.

[Glock3422]

The rule book is very clear in what it says, it is not clear in what it means from a lack of definition.

I subscribe to the "if you shot at it, it doesn't count for being exposed." The pieing the corner analogy is perfect since it is clearly allowed by the rules and should lend some clarity to the intent within the context of reloading. The book also says you do not have to duck back with your torso to execute a reload. You can maintain your 50% of the upper body exposure to the current threat target while reloading. The points down and the FTN is the reward for inaccuracy, not a PE.

If you could never be exposed to a target, you could never move from P1 to P2.

By extension of these rule based concepts, you should be able to reload while moving from P1 to P2 if you are not exposed to targets which have not yet been engaged.

RobMoore-

Most recently at the Maryland State match I was squadded with Donnie Burton and Scott Warren. I can remember at least 2 of the stages one or both of them asked the SO about tac-loading in what some people would consider "the open" or crossing a doorway. The answer was yes, so long as all visible threats had been engaged and they were moving behind cover from the remaining threats.

You were treated to quite a show. Having taken classes with Scott, and having watched he and Donnie shoot quite a few times, it is really worth the price of admission. Having said that, I saw Donnie cross a doorway while reloading at SC this year. He got a PE and said, "OK." He thanked the SOs for their work and moved on.

The best practice is to ask the SO if you want to clarify the rule for that stage. You really don't want to surprise the umpire.

The last statement before LAMR is, "Do you understand the course of fire?"

The other point that lacks clarity is the availability of cover.

Perhaps something along the line of-

If there is cover in the direction of travel, you must go to it to reload, unless there are targets on the way that must be engaged before you get there.

If there is no cover in the direction of travel, you may reload without retreating.

I don't want to argue, just add clarity where there is none. Personally, I can't think of any situation in life or the game where an empty, slide locked gun, with an empty magazine is going to do you any good at all. You should at a very minimum be allowed to dump the empty on the way to whatever "available" cover means.

The rule is really designed to discourage round dumping. Its effectiveness in that respect is another topic.

[Crusher]

This is going nowhere, we have some who cite the rules, and others interpret the rules and a few "GET IT".

The GET IT part comes from the WSB that indicates what and where the "cover" is within any given stage.

Cover may be a short barrel, wall or even a friggin hallway, whatever the stage designer has determined "cover” to be in a particular stage. You must use cover when shooting and while reloading, with the additional caveat for reloading is you must use the same section of cover you initiate the reload from to finish, simple really.

The rulebook (intentionally I believe) left out a specific definition of cover so that those who design stages may be free to come up with many possibilities to vary the mechanical challenges involved with shooting the game.

[PJONES5]

This is going nowhere, we have some who cite the rules, and others interpret the rules and a few "GET IT".

The GET IT part comes from the WSB that indicates what and where the "cover" is within any given stage.

Cover may be a short barrel, wall or even a friggin hallway, whatever the stage designer has determined "cover” to be in a particular stage. You must use cover when shooting and while reloading, with the additional caveat for reloading is you must use the same section of cover you initiate the reload from to finish, simple really.

The rulebook (intentionally I believe) left out a specific definition of cover so that those who design stages may be free to come up with many possibilities to vary the mechanical challenges involved with shooting the game.

That is a good post.

I have been the Match Director at our club for 5 years and that is the exact approach we take.

It works.

You are correct.This thread is like the Tail Wagging the Dog.

pat

[Mike P]

I too, find some aspects of the reload restrictions annoying, particularly not being able to drop a mag when it is empty and at slidelock until you reach cover.

That said, the rule is clear to me that you may not reload unless behind cover, it is also clear that you may not decide for yourself what is or is not cover. Cover should be covered in the stage brief in order to cover your arse until Berryville comes out with another rule book with a different colored cover to cover the issue of cover.

I hope this covers it.

Mike

[racerba]

...simple really.

Really? Then why all this discussion?

I think that those that don't "get it" are only asking for consistancy in the rule. Seems some SOs are willing to call "cover" if no un-engaged threat is exposed, and some SOs are not willing to do so. Didn't these SOs go to the same SO class? Are they teaching something different from class to class?

[tightloop]

Slippery slope...the players have changed but the argument remains...the IDPA rule book does not explain cover, and maybe it should...the intepretation factor from stage to stage, match to match, SO to SO, is ridiculous and desperatly needs continuity to help eliminate this confusion and frustration....

This one going down hill hurriedly...

[GmanCdp]

good website to discuss cover....

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm

[SMSI]

Ha! The box-o-truth is an eye-opener! I hope he tests brick wall corners and vehicle doors/bodies. I suspect that most material we consider to be "cover" is really just "concealment."

However, that has nothing to do with IDPA rules.

[bigj45]

If a stage has a wall across the range and you start in the middle at the beep go to one end and engage 3 targets with 2 rounds each can you perform a RWR while moving along the wall to the other end? If the wall is cover at the ends it should be in the middle. I understand cover as having 50% or more of your upper torso not exposed to a threat target. So any time I am not exposed to a threat target I am behind cover if I am moving, standing, kneeling or doing jumping jacks should not make a difference if a threat target can't see me I am behind cover. Mabye IDPA should paint footprints on the ground and put up signs that say " RE-LOAD HERE" then all of us IPSC shooters will quit trying to interpret the rules as they are written.

[Punkin Chunker]

If a stage has a wall across the range and you start in the middle at the beep go to one end and engage 3 targets with 2 rounds each can you perform a RWR while moving along the wall to the other end? If the wall is cover at the ends it should be in the middle. I understand cover as having 50% or more of your upper torso not exposed to a threat target. So any time I am not exposed to a threat target I am behind cover if I am moving, standing, kneeling or doing jumping jacks should not make a difference if a threat target can't see me I am behind cover. Mabye IDPA should paint footprints on the ground and put up signs that say " RE-LOAD HERE" then all of us IPSC shooters will quit trying to interpret the rules as they are written.

I know what you mean, it gets cornfusing at times, to wit:

Local match, WSB had start seated at desk, phone in strong hand, pistol in drawer on strong side. On signal, retrieve pistol, use desk for cover, engage three threats, then move to doorway and engage two more which were down a hallway to the right (I think stage designer MUST have been left-handed!).

Squad 1/SO1 dinged shooters who reloaded enroute between desk to doorway, with the indisputable rationale that a non-functioning weapon is not good if other threats appear at the door (ah, TACTICS!). Funny thing was, once at the door, cover was again "achieved" and there was no requirement to check for threats before reloading.

Squad 2/SO2 allowed shooters to move from desk to door and RWR/TACLOAD enroute on premise that the visible threats were neutralized, and no other threats were visible.

Without adding to the dustup of "getting it," "citing rules," or whatever, my point is:

Shooters asking the question when the squad gets to the stage isn't always enough, unless SOs communicate their on-the-fly decisions to other SOs. Ideally, when SO's do their walkthrough (predicate being SOs doing their own preliminary walkthrough) they probably should try to view the stages with a "gamer's" eyes and come to an agreement on such things where the WSB is deficient.

Edited July 28, 2007 by Punkin Chunker

[dirtypool40]

Squad 1/SO1 dinged shooters ...

Squad 2/SO2 allowed shooters ....

And there's one of the major rubs; objective or inconsistent application of rules or judgment.

In this case you either need station SO's who don't travel with squads, or SO's who think to ask these sort of questions and get things sorted out so the stage can be administered fairly to all.

[Dolomite]

If cover is available, I know I have to engage targets and perform my reloads while using it per the rules.

We all know when we're behind cover. We also know when we're out in the open.

We know when a reload begins. We know when it ends.

If I were to deserve a "cover" penalty for shooting a target in the open, I would also deserve a "cover" for doing an emergency/tactical/RWR while moving through that same space.

If I engaged a target from cover with one round and wish to reload before doing so again because I am at slide lock, I do not have to disappear behind cover during the reload for two reasons: (a)I am using cover while shooting, and ( I am allowed to keep an eye on the target I just engaged while reloading.

With regard to reloads, "But I neutralized them" is not IDPA cover, neither is "But I was going to run empty on my way to the next position".

[racerba]

If I were to deserve a "cover" penalty for shooting a target in the open, I would also deserve a "cover" for doing an emergency/tactical/RWR while moving through that same space.

Because that target has not been neutralized - you are still engaging it. Totally different than what we are talking about. You do not get a "cover" penalty for shooting the third visible target while slicing the pie, do you? Yet, you are exposing yourself to the first target where you would get a "cover" penalty if you were engaging it.

"But I neutralized them" is not IDPA cover,...

Then everybody gets a "cover" penalty for every target they sliced the pie with.

[lugnut]

Well the debate still continues for some of us. Interesting to read all this after our club's meeting today. I say cover is NOT defined in the rule book. I assume cover is a barrier between you and any remaining threats. So... as long as their is a barrier between me and the threats- I'm behind cover. If I can move and remain behind "cover" I'm good. That's the way I see it.

[Duane Thomas]

Makes sense to me.